How Racist Are You?

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Re: How Racist Are You?

Postby Bob on Thu Nov 10, 2022 12:28 pm

Without adequate measures of validity and reliability your cited scale is worthless for making assessments of whether one is or is not a racist - we are not talking about other models - validity and reliability would also to apply to those also - you are doing a bait and switch - if one doesn't buy into the scale you posted then they are indifferent? Erroneous conclusion of those who don't understand statistical measurement and models.
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Re: How Racist Are You?

Postby GrahamB on Thu Nov 10, 2022 12:58 pm

Everyone's a little bit racist

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbud8rLejLM

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Re: How Racist Are You?

Postby origami_itto on Thu Nov 10, 2022 1:26 pm

Bob wrote:Without adequate measures of validity and reliability your cited scale is worthless for making assessments of whether one is or is not a racist - we are not talking about other models - validity and reliability would also to apply to those also - you are doing a bait and switch - if one doesn't buy into the scale you posted then they are indifferent? Erroneous conclusion of those who don't understand statistical measurement and models.

Do you.... do you think this is a statistical model?
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Re: How Racist Are You?

Postby Steve James on Thu Nov 10, 2022 1:27 pm

:) How about a scale of bigotry instead of racism? I know too many people who just love having "other" girlfriends, but are prejudiced af against those same groups. It's a bit like being on the down low. There are people who'll say it's unnatural. Remember ol' Strom Thurmond? Anyhow, the US is peculiar.

But, put it like this, it didn't matter to Jews whether all Germans were Nazis or not. It only mattered how many Germans would help them escape. It'll always come down to a choice, not a prejudice. I'd have wanted to be someone who'd help them. Imo, most people are like that.

Personally, no one can help me as a Black person, only as a human being. And I can only promise that I feel that way about other humans. One can help individuals, not "races."
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Re: How Racist Are You?

Postby origami_itto on Thu Nov 10, 2022 2:23 pm

Steve James wrote::) How about a scale of bigotry instead of racism? I know too many people who just love having "other" girlfriends, but are prejudiced af against those same groups. It's a bit like being on the down low. There are people who'll say it's unnatural. Remember ol' Strom Thurmond? Anyhow, the US is peculiar.

But, put it like this, it didn't matter to Jews whether all Germans were Nazis or not. It only mattered how many Germans would help them escape. It'll always come down to a choice, not a prejudice. I'd have wanted to be someone who'd help them. Imo, most people are like that.

Personally, no one can help me as a Black person, only as a human being. And I can only promise that I feel that way about other humans. One can help individuals, not "races."


So the current model defines racism as prejudice plus power. It's not just "not liking someone because they are a different race" it's the power structures and conscious and unconscious biases that affect the quality of life and economic empowerment of a minority race.

And you know I could inventory the explicit policies and incidences since Jim Crow that have continued to work against certain populations in this country but I doubt it would serve any purpose. People who say "race doesn't exist" have just never had their race noticeably impact their lives. They have suffered no detriment and the benefits are just taken for granted as the way things work.

Like a REALLY pretty woman, they assume everybody gets treated as well as them.

So while sure, you can't "save a race" you can be aware of and work to dismantle racist structures and institutions and your own biases and prejudices that may be negatively impacting a minority race despite your best intentions.

People may be good, but the rhetoric and policies are just plain evil.
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Re: How Racist Are You?

Postby everything on Thu Nov 10, 2022 4:16 pm

origami_itto wrote:

Like a REALLY pretty woman, they assume everybody gets treated as well as them.


think this is the single, best, concise statement to try to convey to people an analogy that makes sense if they take it all for granted. Even or especially to we men, who cannot have first-hand experience of what that must be like, it makes sense just observing people (and ourselves probably treating them well).

In the opposite extreme, the "Karens" having a toddler meltdown and acting like they are that really pretty woman (when they are not) not being treated the way they "deserve" might make it more clear. Then, when Karen calls 911 (US emergency number), and racist people or those "authorities" with implicit biases show up and arrest the person acting lawfully ("being black while walking a dog") instead of the Karen, we start to very merely scratch the surface of the institutional problems.... those are really too long to go into here. I don't have the energy, either, but anyone can go read about it if they want.
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Re: How Racist Are You?

Postby greytowhite on Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:21 pm

This is what I picked up from the library earlier today.

https://www.workman.com/products/do-the-work/paperback

I have purchased the book and completed the associated course. I teach workshops in this system and include the certification courses Brett has available for them.

https://brettbevell.com/healing-racism-within/
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Re: How Racist Are You?

Postby Steve James on Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:37 pm

Just because there's racism doesn't mean that "race" exists. Well, for example, if I gave "White" students lower grades out of spite or prejudice, that'd be racist. Or if I were a landlord, I could raise the rent on my Asian or Hispanic tenants, etc. Racism is a cause with an effect. Right. Somebody just not liking me because of my skin color is irrelevant to me. Only the decisions that person makes that affects me concerns me.

But, I don't believe that we eliminate prejudice. It's more that some prejudices are just stupid. I think the idea of "mixed race" is silly. Like I said, a child is the same race as their parents.
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Re: How Racist Are You?

Postby greytowhite on Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:48 pm

Steve James wrote:Just because there's racism doesn't mean that "race" exists. Well, for example, if I gave "White" students lower grades out of spite or prejudice, that'd be racist. Or if I were a landlord, I could raise the rent on my Asian or Hispanic tenants, etc. Racism is a cause with an effect. Right. Somebody just not liking me because of my skin color is irrelevant to me. Only the decisions that person makes that affects me concerns me.

But, I don't believe that we eliminate prejudice. It's more that some prejudices are just stupid. I think the idea of "mixed race" is silly. Like I said, a child is the same race as their parents.


Racism does not equal prejudice or prejudicial action. Racism in modern parlance is typically pointing to power structures that exist to suppress non-White people. It's not a Merriam-Webster pissing contest but rather a recognition that racism is a wider thing than simple prejudice.

https://www.intergroupresources.com/rc/ ... Racism.pdf
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Re: How Racist Are You?

Postby Dmitri on Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:08 pm

Steve James wrote:no one can help me as a Black person, only as a human being. And I can only promise that I feel that way about other humans. One can help individuals, not "races."

^^ this.

origami_itto wrote:do you think this is a statistical model?

That meme doesn't deserve the word "model", because that might presume there's some science behind it. There isn't; there's only emotion and misplaced sense of social (in)justice.
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Re: How Racist Are You?

Postby origami_itto on Fri Nov 11, 2022 2:20 am

Dmitri wrote:
Steve James wrote:no one can help me as a Black person, only as a human being. And I can only promise that I feel that way about other humans. One can help individuals, not "races."

^^ this.

Okay, sure, but can you work to eliminate structural inequality that affects you as a black person disproportionately?
https://www.benjerry.com/whats-new/2017 ... -education

This argument is specious at best. It ignores the easily proven reality that minorities in (at least) the United States have far less favorable outcomes across the board controlling for every other factor. Education, medical, economic, when you look past your own emotions and your absolute certainty that life is fair and they are all getting what they deserve, and actually see the data, it's clear. But you do have to look at it and you have to have an open mind.

origami_itto wrote:do you think this is a statistical model?

That meme doesn't deserve the word "model", because that might presume there's some science behind it. There isn't; there's only emotion and misplaced sense of social (in)justice.

So do you believe racism is no longer an issue that requires any attention or effort? We've just got that handled?

It's not science and isn't meant to be, so attacking that is a straw man. It's a social model for understanding our perspectives and how they tie into these racist structures. You can deny it all you like but that is quite simply just the internalized racism that is running through your brain that is driving that opinion.

My sense of injustice here is how my wife gets treated at the doctor's office. Or at a restaurant, even.

Sure, why not, casual racism story.

Went to a BBQ joint in San Antonio with a couple of my co-workers. One white overweight and sloppy with long hair and a beard, one black, clean cut, fit, and squared away. The black guy and I actually served in the same Air Force unit in Germany four years apart. He came in as I was going out. Small world.

So we're at this BBQ joint, and we're all in line, the fat guy goes first and the guy at the counter asks "Are you a veteran?" he says no. I'm next, he asks "Are you a veteran?" I say "Yes" and I get a 10% discount. My black co-worker came up after we were gone and when he sat down I asked him if he got the veterans discount. He said "No, they asked me if I was active duty and said too bad."

So, minor interaction, doesn't mean much, does it? But just one tiny example of one tiny way someone is economically disenfranchised due to their race. You can look into housing sales, job offers, the accumulation of generational wealth... I mean, it's all over the place if you actually look.

So you've got citizens in this country that receive far different outcomes given the same set of starting conditions, consistently and provably due to their race.

So you can take that data and say, geez, it looks like these black folks sure don't know how to handle their business, must be something wrong with them, or you can maybe look into whether there are racist policies, institutions, and power structures that are causing those outcomes.

More often than not, if you look, you can find it pretty easily.

Another model/analysis
https://www.health.state.mn.us/communit ... gories.pdf
Race-associated differences in health outcomes are routinely documented in this country, yet for the most part they remain poorly
explained. Indeed, rather than vigorously exploring the basis of the differences, many scientists either adjust for race or restrict their
studies to one racial group.1 Ignoring the etiologic clues embedded in group differences
impedes the advance of scientific knowledge,
limits efforts at primary prevention, and perpetuates ideas of biologically determined differences between the races.
The variable race is only a rough proxy
for socioeconomic status, culture, and genes,
but it precisely captures the social classification
of people in a race-conscious society such as
the United States. The race noted on a health
form is the same race noted by a sales clerk, a
police officer, or a judge, and this racial classification has a profound impact on daily life
experience in this country. That is, the variable
“race” is not a biological construct that reflects
innate differences, but a social construct that
precisely captures the impacts of racism.
For this reason, some investigators now
hypothesize that race-associated differences in
health outcomes are in fact due to the effects of
racism. In light of the Department of Health
and Human Services’ Initiative to Eliminate
Racial and Ethnic Disparities in Health by the
Year 2010, it is important to be able to examine the potential effects of racism in causing
race-associated differences in health outcomes
Last edited by origami_itto on Fri Nov 11, 2022 3:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How Racist Are You?

Postby everything on Fri Nov 11, 2022 6:49 am

If you change “white” sounding names to “black” sounding names on the same resumes, and send them to the same recruiters, you get a totally different response rate.

There is no rationale that makes this go away.

Even if we theoretically “know” the recruiters are not overtly racist, EVERYONE has implicit, unconscious biases. Since we want to recruit people “like us” (heck look at the stupid tribalism about IMA here), we will unconsciously factor for age, gender, race, etc. If “we” are white males who went to fraternity x, we will feel more comfortable and good getting more of these guys. “We” might not feel the same way about other ages, races, genders, etc whether we realize it or not. Maybe we feel innocent about it, but you add that all up, and you have a systemic problem. Multiply by the countless other instances like this, and it’s a gigantic problem that most people either don’t know about or defensively try to deny exists so it compounds even as some things seem to improve.
Last edited by everything on Fri Nov 11, 2022 6:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How Racist Are You?

Postby Steve James on Fri Nov 11, 2022 7:01 am

Um, I wonder if there's another Black person in this conversation. Clearly, I can't speak for a race; but, I've been Black in the US for 70 years, and have taught American studies for 30 years. I was at Harvard when Derrick Bell began talking about Critical Race Theory, and Stephen Jay Gould was teaching about the history of anthropology. My diss adviser was Henry Louis Gates, probably the most prominent African-Americanist in the US. I don't need a lecture on the Black experience in any sense, but I'll only argue about it with other Black people.

Ime, only "White" people pat themselves on the back for not being racist/prejudiced against "Black" people. They don't get congratulations from me. I don't want someone to feel sorry for "my" condition because I'm Black. Btw, I've written here for over a decade, and have always said there's no such thing as "race" (the way Americans here mean it). But, there's always someone who'll find an article or video on the internet that points to the differences between races. So, I don't try to persuade anyone who wants to believe in it. Usually, the belief is so important to that person's identity that they feel offended if it's questioned. And, no, I don't want to be equal.

So, I talk about White and Black people just to make it easier to discuss. Anyway, fwiw, the people I admire most are the White people who stood up and suffered for being against segregation. Who risked their lives to get on buses going to places in Mississippi -I still won't go- and ended up shot and buried in ditches. They were heroes because they didn't have to be. But, I'd never ask anyone to do that for me. I can defend myself.

Yeah, I experience some racial inconveniences almost every day. If "you" have any assumptions about a Black person, because they are Black, that's totally on "you." I do have concerned about the inadequacies of health care for Black people in the US, as well as the issues in the educational system, and in the legal system (which generated CRT in the first place). We know that things aren't always fair.

Here's the thing, though. I lived in Europe for a while. The first time a "White" woman walked up to me and actually asked me a question was in 80s Germany. Well, there's an entire history there that goes back to WW1, and why there were so many expats. Living there taught me that "White people" was a meaningless term there. Look at Russia v Ukraine. Sure, "people like to be around their own kind," "people are naturally violent toward others," those are familiar arguments in the US.

Imo, there are just too many "White" people in the US who aren't doing well, but think they're supposed to be doing better because they're "White." But, the educational, economic, medical, and legal systems always compare Whites to Blacks. "Who's doing better?" Did you ever think of why those comparisons are important? Doesn't everyone know that the statistics for Indigenous people are far worse than for Black Americans?

Don't get me wrong. Fight against injustice. Wherever you find it. And, let me clarify. There's nothing anyone can do for me as a Black man that they couldn't (or shouldn't) have done if I weren't. That's all I, and most of the people I know, want. But, I can only speak for myself.
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Re: How Racist Are You?

Postby origami_itto on Fri Nov 11, 2022 7:42 am

Steve James wrote:Um, I wonder if there's another Black person in this conversation. Clearly, I can't speak for a race; but, I've been Black in the US for 70 years, and have taught American studies for 30 years. I was at Harvard when Derrick Bell began talking about Critical Race Theory, and Stephen Jay Gould was teaching about the history of anthropology. My diss adviser was Henry Louis Gates, probably the most prominent African-Americanist in the US. I don't need a lecture on the Black experience in any sense, but I'll only argue about it with other Black people.

Ime, only "White" people pat themselves on the back for not being racist/prejudiced against "Black" people. They don't get congratulations from me. I don't want someone to feel sorry for "my" condition because I'm Black. Btw, I've written here for over a decade, and have always said there's no such thing as "race" (the way Americans here mean it). But, there's always someone who'll find an article or video on the internet that points to the differences between races. So, I don't try to persuade anyone who wants to believe in it. Usually, the belief is so important to that person's identity that they feel offended if it's questioned. And, no, I don't want to be equal.

So, I talk about White and Black people just to make it easier to discuss. Anyway, fwiw, the people I admire most are the White people who stood up and suffered for being against segregation. Who risked their lives to get on buses going to places in Mississippi -I still won't go- and ended up shot and buried in ditches. They were heroes because they didn't have to be. But, I'd never ask anyone to do that for me. I can defend myself.

Yeah, I experience some racial inconveniences almost every day. If "you" have any assumptions about a Black person, because they are Black, that's totally on "you." I do have concerned about the inadequacies of health care for Black people in the US, as well as the issues in the educational system, and in the legal system (which generated CRT in the first place). We know that things aren't always fair.

Here's the thing, though. I lived in Europe for a while. The first time a "White" woman walked up to me and actually asked me a question was in 80s Germany. Well, there's an entire history there that goes back to WW1, and why there were so many expats. Living there taught me that "White people" was a meaningless term there. Look at Russia v Ukraine. Sure, "people like to be around their own kind," "people are naturally violent toward others," those are familiar arguments in the US.

Imo, there are just too many "White" people in the US who aren't doing well, but think they're supposed to be doing better because they're "White." But, the educational, economic, medical, and legal systems always compare Whites to Blacks. "Who's doing better?" Did you ever think of why those comparisons are important? Doesn't everyone know that the statistics for Indigenous people are far worse than for Black Americans?

Don't get me wrong. Fight against injustice. Wherever you find it. And, let me clarify. There's nothing anyone can do for me as a Black man that they couldn't (or shouldn't) have done if I weren't. That's all I, and most of the people I know, want. But, I can only speak for myself.


I wouldn't presume to tell you about your own experience and definitely not looking for head pats, just flexing the rhetoric. Treating any group homogenously is a mistake.

But that is not what the conversation is about. It's about documented and demonstrable methods of disenfranchising entire populations and reducing their ability to participate in the economy.

Your mileage may vary, my wife didn't come from the ghetto, the people i work with in IT also tend to come from more privileged backgrounds.

That doesn't change the fact that schools are more segregated now than ever and predominantly black schools get less funding.
Or that predominantly black neighborhoods are far less likely to receive funds from state and city budgets.
Or that they are food desserts with nothing available to eat but overpriced convenience store junk. When the closest social security or driver's license office is an hour away by bus, but the only thing you need that ID for is voting so is it really worth missing a day of work?
The drastic disparity in healthcare outcomes and generational wealth accumulation. Did you realize being born into a wealthy black family statistically has very little impact on your own economic success.
One of the strangest things you'll find is that, again statistically across the population, black people have a hard time benefiting from wealth and education as much as white people coming from an equivalent status background.

And beyond altruistic concern for the plight of the black man, this interest in social justice is about protecting my own ass.

Poor and minority populations are vulnerable, nobody is looking out for their interests meaningfully. So for someone in a more privileged position they can serve as a kind of canary in the coal mine. The shit they pull to disempower and disenfranchise poor minorities today are the same tricks they want to extend to everyone else.

Being aware of them and fighting against them wherever possible is really our only chance of maintaining a functional democracy.

But, the educational, economic, medical, and legal systems always compare Whites to Blacks. "Who's doing better?" Did you ever think of why those comparisons are important? Doesn't everyone know that the statistics for Indigenous people are far worse than for Black Americans?


I think that's a fair point. The articles I'm posting here are also inclusive of indigenous people but in actual discussion it gets reduced to "black people" as shorthand. I like BIPOC as the most inclusive term but it gets a little confusing for people who have yet to admit the social construct exists in the first place.
Last edited by origami_itto on Fri Nov 11, 2022 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How Racist Are You?

Postby marvin8 on Fri Nov 11, 2022 8:09 am

The Spectator
Oct 31, 2022

Winston speaks with American author, conservative commentator and activist Candace Owens. They discuss why she and Kanye West wore White Lives Matter shirts at Paris Fashion Week, Kanye’s offensive tweets, the rise of Black Lives Matter, her new film ‘The Greatest Lie Ever Sold’ exploring the death of George Floyd and much more…

// CHAPTERS
00:00 – Intro
00:48 – Kanye West and White Lives Matter
14:08 – George Floyd and the rise of BLM
32:32] – 'Ye' and anti-Semitism


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw1AbSQlefM
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