How Racist Are You?

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Re: How Racist Are You?

Postby Steve James on Fri Nov 11, 2022 9:30 am

Poor and minority populations are vulnerable, nobody is looking out for their interests meaningfully. So for someone in a more privileged position they can serve as a kind of canary in the coal mine. The shit they pull to disempower and disenfranchise poor minorities today are the same tricks they want to extend to everyone else.


I don't disagree with your points and premises. My concern is what is done with the conclusion. If it's that "White" people should do more for "POC," I think that's fine. I just don't tell any POC to wait for White people's help. It's a trap. Of course, in terms of medicine, I'd say we need more hospitals and medical care in poor areas. Personally, I've encouraged them to get educations. It's why I went back to teach where I grew up.

Your last sentence is important. There are people who gained economically from the creation of a racial divide. It's always come down to who gets paid and how much. The more power coupons one has, the better the health care, living conditions, and everything else. Wealthy people watch the poor compete for the scraps and blame each other that they're not wealthy too. But, now I'm being anti-capitalist. At any rate, I'm arguing that it's better for me to argue that healthcare should be improved generally. But, you are totally right in pointing out that the results are the result of racism.

Afa Candace Owens, I've made it a practice not to criticize Black people for their views. It's because I know that they're just people and have as many views as any other group. It's nice to have the delusion that one person speaks for a group, though. What's funny in the case of Owens, specifically, is that she talks about Black people as if they're others. Then she can say things about them that'd be called racist if a non-Black said them. She gets to tell them what Black people think and why.

Afa Kanye, he has diagnosed mental issues, and should receive treatment. He's so wealthy, however, few of the people around him are able to control him. Afa Kyrie, hey, he's a grown man who's also an employee. I think he has the right to say what he wants, but he doesn't represent many people. He used to believe the earth was flat. But, he and Kanye have given more advertisement for the video than it would ever have otherwise. I don't understand why either of their views are considered important, or why people are outraged. BTJM.
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Re: How Racist Are You?

Postby Dmitri on Fri Nov 11, 2022 2:29 pm

origami_itto wrote:
Dmitri wrote:
Steve James wrote:no one can help me as a Black person, only as a human being. And I can only promise that I feel that way about other humans. One can help individuals, not "races."

^^ this.


...minorities in (at least) the United States have far less favorable outcomes across the board controlling for every other factor. (...) you do have to look at it and you have to have an open mind.

Absolutely. My beef is with that chart and the self-righteous virtue-signaling faux empathy that some of those "warriors" manifest when they create those. What percentage of them actually, physically helped anyone (of any "race")? Did the author(s) of that chart volunteer in a related field?

So do you believe racism is no longer an issue that requires any attention or effort? We've just got that handled?
(...)
...that is quite simply just the internalized racism that is running through your brain that is driving that opinion.


Unconscious bias is real (on all sides), and historical economic/social inequality exists; we need to be aware of the former and work to help the latter. But that chart is ridiculous on several levels.

Racism as such, at least by a dictionary definition, presumes display of "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism" -- sure, it still exists, but it is qualitatively less frequent, compared to even a decade ago, and is continuing to rapidly diminish as minorities improve their lives, get elected to office, etc.

What pisses me off is the fake offense some of these folks take on behalf of all those "other races" and fearlessly take to their keyboards to tell others of "their race" how awful they all are simply because of... the color of their skin. Sound familiar? They don't even see their own self-induced prejudices.

I think that less categorization is needed desperately, not more. Fewer mental shelves to place people on, and more physical help -- donations, volunteering, leading by example, etc. -- to those who need it. Whatever their ethnicity might be.
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Re: How Racist Are You?

Postby everything on Fri Nov 11, 2022 3:21 pm

some of it boils down to

* everyone has unconscious biases. to be redundant, we aren't aware of them. these can be ageist, raceist, sexist, and so on and so on.
* these multiply to cause massive damage.
* it's hard to be aware so we need to have other folks with different povs and different biases around. it's not enough to say "oh well, after learning about this or that or having 'one black friend', I'm now individually not -*ist. all good."
* if we are very powerful people whose decisions broadly impact society or millions of people, even more so.
* keep going
Last edited by everything on Fri Nov 11, 2022 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How Racist Are You?

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Fri Nov 11, 2022 10:12 pm

LOL. The only thing that could make this thread better would be if WW, Udel, or Bruce posted their true feelings. The centrists are doing just fine, though.
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Re: How Racist Are You?

Postby cloudz on Sun Nov 13, 2022 11:37 am

about average in private I'd say.
and about average in public.

just don't get me started about the Irish.
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Re: How Racist Are You?

Postby origami_itto on Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:53 am

Steve James wrote:
Poor and minority populations are vulnerable, nobody is looking out for their interests meaningfully. So for someone in a more privileged position they can serve as a kind of canary in the coal mine. The shit they pull to disempower and disenfranchise poor minorities today are the same tricks they want to extend to everyone else.


I don't disagree with your points and premises. My concern is what is done with the conclusion. If it's that "White" people should do more for "POC," I think that's fine. I just don't tell any POC to wait for White people's help. It's a trap. Of course, in terms of medicine, I'd say we need more hospitals and medical care in poor areas. Personally, I've encouraged them to get educations. It's why I went back to teach where I grew up.

Your last sentence is important. There are people who gained economically from the creation of a racial divide. It's always come down to who gets paid and how much. The more power coupons one has, the better the health care, living conditions, and everything else. Wealthy people watch the poor compete for the scraps and blame each other that they're not wealthy too. But, now I'm being anti-capitalist. At any rate, I'm arguing that it's better for me to argue that healthcare should be improved generally. But, you are totally right in pointing out that the results are the result of racism.

Afa Candace Owens, I've made it a practice not to criticize Black people for their views. It's because I know that they're just people and have as many views as any other group. It's nice to have the delusion that one person speaks for a group, though. What's funny in the case of Owens, specifically, is that she talks about Black people as if they're others. Then she can say things about them that'd be called racist if a non-Black said them. She gets to tell them what Black people think and why.

Afa Kanye, he has diagnosed mental issues, and should receive treatment. He's so wealthy, however, few of the people around him are able to control him. Afa Kyrie, hey, he's a grown man who's also an employee. I think he has the right to say what he wants, but he doesn't represent many people. He used to believe the earth was flat. But, he and Kanye have given more advertisement for the video than it would ever have otherwise. I don't understand why either of their views are considered important, or why people are outraged. BTJM.


That's a great point, and i guess i need to clarify a few things.

Something that white people sometimes find surprising is that there are black people that are not obsessed with or determined to define themselves by black suffering.

We're pretty stupid in general concerning matters of race.

And yes, I'm sure one tires of being told how oppressed they are.

As to posting it here, market research, perspective, thank you for sharing yours. I wouldn't dare to try to educate you about the subject, but the discussion itself can carry beyond our own individual enlightenment.

The chart starts with the assumption that racism exists and assigns your response to that fact to a point on the spectrum between actively supporting and actively dismantling it.

There is no outside authority checking our answer, just our own conscience. Some of us get quite defensive about this question and fall back on academic pretense. We all have a reaction.

Adding in the academic analysis and racist medical text is just providing the proof it exists in order to make confronting the question a bit more intense.

White people want to be thought of as racist oppressors even less than black people want to be reduced to the object of their cruelty.

I think, like you, that "race" is a distraction. However it's a thing that can be measured and that we can show disparity of treatment, opportunity, and outcome by isolating those data points.

So we have shown race as a social construct exists, that it can affect how fully a person is able to participate in and benefit from our society, and that there are individual perspectives and systemic iniquity that reinforce that disparity.

So what do we do?

First, as problem solvers, yes, we forget about race.

It isn't about white people saving black people or black people saving themselves. I believe firmly that one should endeavor to feed themself, being the only one that needs themself.

It's about citizens of this hypocritical nation endeavoring to live up to our own advertising in unity. You can't fix these things by framing them as a black issue or a White issue. You have to show the cost in dollars and sense, the wasted resources, the overlooked potential. Whatever the individual impact happens to be, it radiates into the rest of the community. We are not the greatest nation in the world, and that is directly related to systemic inequality based on all the standard traits. I know a PhD candidate who was forced to restart 7 years of work once they came out as trans. Why? Because prejudiced individuals are in positions of power and authority.

Ultimately that is the problem. Race is just one thing they use. If you're not in the club you're not getting in, or at least they only let you in as far as they have to in order to exploit you. The messages of division are just there to keep us thinking of these things as someone else's problem. It doesn't affect us and we're not the ones causing it so why should we care? What stake does this person have in the outcome? Can i trust their desire to be involved?

After the unite the right rally in Charlottesville, the one where a fascist drove his car into a crowd, killing a woman, i attended a rally in Austin.

It was very emotional. Everybody in their t shirts and signs. Fully 95% of the black people in attendance were the ones running the show.

They did a very moving "Say their name" ceremony, listing names of individuals who have died due to police violence. We all had a good hug and a cry.

Then this guy, community organizer, probably in his fifties, took the mic and thanked us for coming out, and then spent five full minutes laying into us. It was fantastic.

The jist was, yeah its great that we were scared/shamed into getting off our asses and doing something ineffectual for an afternoon, but where were we when it mattered? Who is showing up at city board meetings and speaking up about the budget to help get funds into these specific underfunded neighborhoods? Yeah that's a nice sign but you could have spent that time and those resources doing something that matters.

So, what is the takeaway?

It's supposed to be government of the people, by the people, and for the people, but it's really just the people that show up that get what they want.

There was a thriving black community in st paul called Rondo. Arts, business, homes. The city decided the interstate needed to run right through the middle, cutting each side off from the other, with the closest through street or on ramp miles away.

It fell apart. Went back to the standard ghettoized and isolated microculture. Now they have a yearly Rondo days celebration of community and excellence, but you know what that's good for.

They win when we're separated. Arguing over shit we don't understand from a position of fear, resentment, anger, and isolation.

The day we all realize that we're on the same team, the assholes in charge just can't sleep at night knowing we kept a nickel in our pocket and some sense of agency about our person, and that we can effectively implement change is the day that.... Will never come, but one can dream.
Last edited by origami_itto on Mon Nov 14, 2022 11:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How Racist Are You?

Postby Steve James on Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:42 pm

White people want to be thought of as racist oppressors even less than black people want to be reduced to the object of their cruelty.


A very important point. "Race" isn't a problem until people think it determines, explains, or justifies their position. It's just as bad for a dirt-poor "White" person to feel they're impoverished because of their race (i.e. being White) as it is for a "Black" person to do the same. Worse, as you point out, people who consider themselves White -in the US, specifically- associate themselves with those who've oppressed other people/races. They don't identify with the White people who've fought against oppression. Many will get upset if Black people want to celebrate non-White heroes (such as POC who led slave rebellions, for ex). But, they'll demand the right to fly the Confederate (or Nazi) flag. Well, they have to figure that out for themselves.

Anyway, what to do? Depends? Since it's not always possible to walk in another person's shoes, it's best to judge people by how the behave (towards you, and others). If someone you know suggests that y'all paint swastikas on someone's house, just remember that he's capable of doing the same to yours. On the macro level, that means paying attention to what politicians want to do and who they want to do it to.

Otherwise, just don't be that guy.
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Re: How Racist Are You?

Postby yeniseri on Fri Nov 18, 2022 10:58 am

Steve James wrote:Racism in medicine isn't new. The question is what the people affected can do about it. My main argument is that "race" is not the cause, and can't be the solution.

Anyway, you could be interested in the book Medical Apartheid
https://www.amazon.com/Medical-Aparthei ... 076791547X


"How Racist are you" question not only skips the essential Rorschach elements of cultural impression and expressions but it ignores (depending on the individual or groups involved) the underlying reason of racism from the most ignorant to the most sophisticated. The meaning is that wherever you are in the status quo or priviledged rung of the societal ladder, one's expression reflects that individual interpretation of "racism".
Racism was on the law books of US America where certain behaviours were rewarded to keep segregation in force and in place so when it was outlawed, its expression attached itself to the societal division of the day. As example, for the person with slaves, some realized machines were the tools to 'speed up' ROI for cotton, corn,etc and if they could have afforded the revenue to buy said machines, oitlawing slavery was no big thang! On the other hand, the more numerous slaveowners with less that a "nominal workforce"l workfoce was probably insulted through loss of this slave workforce and as a result more combative that it should remain. They could not afford this new machine technology so their rank lobbied to maintain the institution (of slavery).
Those owning no slaves (per their social position on the rung (of society) lost the impetus "to be better than" the slave or the indigenous due to this new concept of 'social equality' (1850s) and they revolted by becoming Democrats (of that era for a time until they became GOP fanatics (OK, this is an inside joke) FYI. Remember US Americans stated to be "black" and being ordained by law ;D were the Republicans of the day, something many forget ???

Per the medical element, the Medical Establishment often relied on the presence of "black" and "brown" bodies as the building block of current medical protocols despite shouts to the contrary!
The infamous HeLa cells (named after Henrietta Lacks, a US American! ;D ) often used to test, and for cancer research, never informed the Lacks family of intention, they were never compensated nor acknowledged on the direction and future of these cervical cells until the family came to know about the purpose and use of this cellular research, by accident Informed consent was only used for real human beings US Americans (figure that one out!), on the same mental mindest of the Tuskegee Incident. Even further back, for Native indigenous Americans, the use of pox blankets (though minor per historical documentation) or the use of birth control protocols to limit birth) tells an interesting story if we go beyond what the history books fail to even touch!

https://www.thoughtco.com/hela-cells-4160415
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