key to (reversing) aging discovered / tai chi helps

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key to (reversing) aging discovered / tai chi helps

Postby everything on Sun Jan 15, 2023 8:34 pm

https://time.com/6246864/reverse-aging- ... milestone/

TL;DR: a "partial reboot" is possible to "rewind" cells back to when the epigenome gives correct instructions. cells "age" due not to mutations but incorrect instructions. scientists have currently restored bad vision in mice. could possibly apply to various types of cells to "reboot" them or to "entire animal".

excerpt:

That reversibility makes a strong case for the fact that the main drivers of aging aren’t mutations to the DNA, but miscues in the epigenetic instructions that somehow go awry. Sinclair has long proposed that aging is the result of losing critical instructions that cells need to continue functioning, in what he calls the Information Theory of Aging. “Underlying aging is information that is lost in cells, not just the accumulation of damage,” he says. “That’s a paradigm shift in how to think about aging. “
His latest results seem to support that theory. It’s similar to the way software programs operate off hardware, but sometimes become corrupt and need a reboot, says Sinclair. “If the cause of aging was because a cell became full of mutations, then age reversal would not be possible,” he says. “But by showing that we can reverse the aging process, that shows that the system is intact, that there is a backup copy and the software needs to be rebooted.”
In the mice, he and his team developed a way to reboot cells to restart the backup copy of epigenetic instructions, essentially erasing the corrupted signals that put the cells on the path toward aging. They mimicked the effects of aging on the epigenome by introducing breaks in the DNA of young mice. (Outside of the lab, epigenetic changes can be driven by a number of things, including smoking, exposure to pollution and chemicals.) Once “aged” in this way, within a matter of weeks Sinclair saw that the mice began to show signs of older age—including grey fur, lower body weight despite unaltered diet, reduced activity, and increased frailty.
The rebooting came in the form of a gene therapy involving three genes that instruct cells to reprogram themselves—in the case of the mice, the instructions guided the cells to restart the epigenetic changes that defined their identity as, for example, kidney and skin cells, two cell types that are prone to the effects of aging. These genes came from the suite of so-called Yamanaka stem cells factors—a set of four genes that Nobel scientist Shinya Yamanaka in 2006 discovered can turn back the clock on adult cells to their embryonic, stem cell state so they can start their development, or differentiation process, all over again. Sinclair didn’t want to completely erase the cells’ epigenetic history, just reboot it enough to reset the epigenetic instructions. Using three of the four factors turned back the clock about 57%, enough to make the mice youthful again.


Beyond that, the implications of being able to age and rejuvenate tissues, organs, or even entire animals or people are mind-bending. Sinclair has rejuvenated the eye nerves multiple times, which raises the more existential question for bioethicists and society of considering what it would mean to continually rewind the clock on aging.
This study is just the first step in redefining what it means to age, and Sinclair is the first to acknowledge that it raises more questions than answers. “We don’t understand how rejuvenation really works, but we know it works,” he says. “We can use it to rejuvenate parts of the body and hopefully make medicines that will be revolutionary. Now, when I see an older person, I don’t look at them as old, I just look at them as someone whose system needs to be rebooted. It’s no longer a question of if rejuvenation is possible, but a question of when.”


https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2271979 ... onclusions.
In the tai chi cohort all six marks demonstrate significant slowing (by 5-70%) of the age-related methylation losses or gains observed in the controls, suggesting that tai chi practice may be associated with measurable beneficial epigenetic changes.
Last edited by everything on Sun Jan 15, 2023 8:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: key to (reversing) aging discovered / tai chi helps

Postby Steve James on Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:15 am

There's what we want, and then there's what natural evolution demands. Aging and death have a purpose for the species, but I have other questions. For ex, at what age do we want to stop aging? 21, 31, 41...? What if you're 90 when the cure is discovered? I'd guess that everyone who was 60 would want to be 50 again :). Then there's also the matter of reproduction -which could be unlimited, indefinitely. I dunno. The ability to "reverse aging" could be a disaster, but I think that "slow/delay aging" is more accurately what we could achieve. Yeah, if we could be 120, yet feel like 70, that'd be great. Though, there are 90-year-olds today who can do things that 40-year-olds can't.

Afa tcc helping, Ma Yuliang was practicing in his 100s, and Madam Gao Fu was super impressive at almost 90. Imo, tcc won't affect genetics more than xingyi or bagua. Hey, it won't hurt. :)
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Re: key to (reversing) aging discovered / tai chi helps

Postby everything on Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:56 am

the ethics issues seem quite difficult when it gets to the "sci fi stages". as social media pointed out, we don't want a bunch of Bezos and Musks doing their "evil billionaire" thing at age 300, and everybody else cannot have "life extension".

but geeeeez, my knee sure wouldn't mind being able to repair some of its own cartilage. my middle-aged-need-reading-glasses eyes wouldn't mind better vision, either. and so on.

if you "fix" your joint, your vision, your heart, your brain, your other organs ... and there isn't a "general fix", well, you're going to have a better lifespan/healthspan, but maybe you don't live to 300. you live to 100 with better health?

that of course leads to some other societal questions, but maybe those are easier than the "1%ers are 300, normal people are 100" problem.
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Re: key to (reversing) aging discovered / tai chi helps

Postby windwalker on Mon Jan 16, 2023 9:05 am


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17pCA-TjBV8&t=1148s

In a future where people stop ageing after 25 and need to buy time to live,
the rich become immortal while others cease to exist.
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Re: key to (reversing) aging discovered / tai chi helps

Postby Steve James on Mon Jan 16, 2023 9:43 am

The Island (with Ewan McGregor) has a similar theme, except longer aging is accomplished by cloning, whereas the clones' bodies are used as organ banks. Of course, it's the wealthy who can afford to clone. Anyway, it's certain that the wealthiest would get any treatments first. The question is whether they'd also want to limit the average person's access to it.
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Re: key to (reversing) aging discovered / tai chi helps

Postby everything on Mon Jan 16, 2023 9:50 am

think I might've have seen The Island. Will have to check out the In Time movie.

These dystopian movies are right up my alley for entertainment (definitely not IRL).

It's a crazy world we're living in now. The "really interesting tech period" seems to just be starting. "We" finally created a tool that is "smarter" than us, at least for specific use cases, although being good at generating language responses sure does cover a lot of human intelligence/communication use cases. "We" know a lot about the genome, and apparently about cell "reboots".
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Re: key to (reversing) aging discovered / tai chi helps

Postby everything on Mon Jan 16, 2023 12:04 pm

here are some more quotes from the tai chi study, bold is from me.

In this study, we have investigated whether tai chi practice is associated with changes in DNA methylation and, if so, whether the changes are beneficial (as defined by the slowing of age-related changes). To address these questions, we have determined and compared the methylation profiles of 60 CpGs from six different chromosomes between female tai chi practitioners and the matched controls. We have identified six CpG marks originating from chromosomes 5, 17, and X that show a significant difference (P = 0.001–0.031) between the two cohorts. Four of these CpGs show losses in DNA methylation while the remaining two demonstrate gains in DNA methylation with age in the controls. The results indicate that the two adjacently located CpGs (G6PD_6 and G6PD_7, 20 bp apart; see Table 4) within the promoter region of the G6PD gene both give decreasing normal DNA methylation trends with age. In contrast, within the Rad50 gene promoter region, while a decreasing normal methylation trend is seen for the Rad50_2, an increasing trend is seen for the Rad50_10 situated 147 bp downstream (Table 4). Previous studies have described variability in DNA methylation of distinct CpG marks that are situated in very close proximity [51, 52].

Notably, for all six CpGs, we have observed a slowing of the age-related trends for DNA methylation losses or gains in the tai chi cohort compared to the control cohort. The maximum amount of slowing ranged from approximately 5% to 70% for the different marks, with the Rad50_10 mark from the promoter region of the DNA double-strand break repair protein gene Rad50 [53] showing the greatest effect of slowing. There also appear to be two noticeable timing patterns with respect to when a CpG shows a response to the effects of tai chi. For Rad50_2 and Xp13_1, the effects of tai chi are detectable from (and presumably before) 45 years of age and thereafter across the 45–88 age range. For the remaining four marks, significant methylation differences between the two cohorts do not become apparent until after 50–55 years of age. One possible explanation for this observation is that tai chi has no effect on the methylation profiles of these four CpGs until after this age. An alternative and tantalising explanation is that a significant deterioration of the normal DNA methylation profiles for these four CpGs does not occur until after the postmenopausal age of 50–55 years and that tai chi is effective in slowing this deterioration when it occurs.

Our observed slower cross-sectional decline in the DNA methylation of all six CpGs in the tai chi cohort compared to those of the controls suggests that tai chi practice has a beneficial effect in protecting against the decay of epigenetic functions with age.

How tai chi brings about such a protection is unclear.
Numerous studies have pointed to a positive effect of tai chi on a significant number of physical, physiological, and psychosocial functions including balance control, flexibility, cardiovascular fitness, falls in the elderly, musculoskeletal conditions such as osteoarthritis and rheumatoid arthritis, hypertension, bone mineral density, neuromuscular function, the cardiovascular, respiratory, endocrine, and immune systems, psychological responses including depression and perceived health status, and quality of life including activity tolerance, pain management, kinaesthetic sense, sleep quality, and stress reduction [1, 5, 7, 8, 25–27]. Studies have also shown the benefit of tai chi on bone mineral density and neuromuscular function in postmenopausal women [25, 62]. Where tai chi was compared to other forms of exercise, such as stretching and/or resistance-training exercises used in the fibromyalgia and Parkinson's Disease studies [5, 6], significantly better health outcomes were reported for tai chi; however, a systematic comparison of tai chi and other forms of exercise has not been done. Our study was not designed to answer the question of whether general exercise is related to epigenetic changes. We collected data on exercise to adjust for possible confounding. As Table 1 indicates, a similar proportion of tai chi and control participants (86% and 85%, resp.; P = 0.99) regularly performed non-tai chi exercise. There was a range of non-tai chi exercise being done by participants and we do not have enough details about types and intensities of exercise to further analyse whether general exercise is related to epigenetic changes. Our hypothesis related specifically to mind-body exercise, that is, tai chi.

As a complex intervention tool, tai chi is thought to impart its beneficial effects through the integrated improvement of the well-being of the individual at the physical, psychosocial, physiological, emotional, behavioural, and spiritual levels. As the results of this preliminary study suggest, such a holistic intervention approach may, at a more fundamental level, impact directly on the epigenetic and molecular wellbeing of the cells.



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3375016/

it seems from this study, you could say "tai chi might help you fight aging" or "tai chi might help your cells fight aging".
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Re: key to (reversing) aging discovered / tai chi helps

Postby Doc Stier on Mon Jan 16, 2023 12:11 pm

From a classical Chinese and Indian perspective related to Yangsheng, Tao-Yin and Yoga practices, an 'ageless' body isn't a body that never ages, but rather a body which ages less rapidly than it would have without practicing such methods daily.

The result is a more youthful physical appearance and a more youthful overall vitality at any age in comparison to others of the same chronological age who don't engage in these practices. Prevention of rapid aging and the maintenance of optimum overall health is the top priority, not the reversal of normal aging, although that often occurs as well.

An 'ageless body' is generally accompanied by a 'timeless mind', thus producing a superb combination. It's all good for those who are capable of disciplining themselves in the training.
Last edited by Doc Stier on Tue Jan 17, 2023 10:21 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: key to (reversing) aging discovered / tai chi helps

Postby everything on Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:29 pm

I guess my takeaways from the two are:
1. try to use the "ancient tech" to slow the aging / keep quality / any other benefits in the meantime and in any case.
2. when the "new reboot tech" is developed into specific treatments, use that if possible/needed.
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Re: key to (reversing) aging discovered / tai chi helps

Postby yeniseri on Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:39 am

The interesting is that cells keep on producing but it is the mental sphere and how we think, process our habits/attitudes that mold us hence aging, regardless of what we do or practice.
We think old (by behaviours) and that is what we become!
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Re: key to (reversing) aging discovered / tai chi helps

Postby Doc Stier on Tue Jan 17, 2023 9:12 am

Agreed. That's why it is imperative to cultivate both an 'ageless body' and a 'timeless mind' simultaneously.

In this way, prevention of common aging and the reversal of same can both be achieved. ymmv.
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Re: key to (reversing) aging discovered / tai chi helps

Postby Peacedog on Sat Jan 21, 2023 10:24 am

After spending about 10 years looking at this I came to a couple of conclusions.

1. Medicine only started to address aging as a disease versus an unstoppable phenomenon recently. So, drug therapies are very primitive. Regardless of the NMA/NMN controversy, the primary anti-aging stack is rapamycin, metformin and telmisartan. The key part of which is rapamycin. And that "look" all the anti-aging experts have is due to rapamycin use. Ignore all of their other statements. Bottom line, they want this for themselves and not the general population. My research, and the ridiculous amount of money it cost me to figure out that drug cocktail, are what led me to this conclusion regarding their motives. It is a much longer conversation than would fit into a forum post. The addition of an autophagy inducing agent periodically is the only thing I would make.

2. As for traditional approaches to anti-aging, I've only ever found four things that might extend ultimate lifespan. Note I said might and none of these will make you live to 120 without having been born to the right parents. They will compress morbidity, however.

They are in no particular order: daily application of moxibustion AFTER the age of 30, periodic fasting, shih shui gung and pranayama. People who practice any of these seem to live longer than they should and appear quite youthful for their various cohorts. For fasting 3-4 days once a quarter seems to be the sweet spot.

3. Energy based yogic/chi gung/martial practices give you more energy and results in people being more active for longer. It does not extend lifespan barring a genetic disease that may have killed you early in life that said energy-based practice allows you to get over.

4. Exercise strongly engages autophagy. Perhaps even in line with that of fasting.

My gut feel says somewhere around 2050 medicine will be able to extend human life for a very long period of time. Quite possibly hundreds of years. The only question is how good the rejuvenation tech is for people who are already older. Permanently living in the body of an 80-year-old might not be worth it.
Last edited by Peacedog on Sat Jan 21, 2023 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: key to (reversing) aging discovered / tai chi helps

Postby Quigga on Sat Jan 21, 2023 11:18 am

Does any of this prevent getting dementia?

3-4 days fasting is very doable. I thought the longer the better.

I once did a strict dry fast for 40-48 hours. That one was tough. With water, I went 4 days I believe. 3 for sure.

If you don't have constant pain, being old isn't so bad.

What makes you believe we make it to 2050? I'm quite anxious about that.
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Re: key to (reversing) aging discovered / tai chi helps

Postby everything on Sat Jan 21, 2023 11:40 am

disclaimer: have zero knowledge of chemistry or biology.

intermittent fasting supposedly boosts your HGH. haven't read about it, but I suspect HGH (like tai chi via unknown (to science experiments) mechanisms) also helps with the epigenetic instruction signal clarity.

we all have "cell regeneration" such as when you have a cut heal. but not the way babies and kids do. if those cells have clear instructions, then roughly speaking, presumably that's how this "rebooting" works (but better). if you have this "rebooting" for many things, not sure you are then living in the 80 year old body, or if the clock rewinds. but even if we just improve our "healthspan" not just our lifespan, it's obviously important/desirable.

Ray Kurzweil has been studying longevity for a long, long time, and predicting a lot of this. If you've been following the AI news aside from chatbots, you may know that AI can help find solutions much faster. Combined with Moore's Law and other reasons that tech development has been accelerating, Kurzweil points out most humans vastly underestimate how fast change is occurring. We don't (as people bad at math) fundamentally understand exponential growth ... we think everything is linear, but when we step back, we realize it's not the case (if we are reasonably good at math). His prediction would probably say this is all coming much sooner than 2050, but only if humans can adapt to / utilize the faster pace of innovation that is possible, particularly with using AI to help. if people have just messed with chatGPT, they can probably imagine (as a 5 year old level) how that is possible.

full interview at
https://transcend.me/blogs/news-events/ ... on-changed

Q: Have your thoughts on life extension changed?

RK: No. In fact we're now applying AI to life extension. We're actually simulating biology, so we can now do tests with simulated biology. Take the Moderna vaccine for example. They actually tested several billion different mRNA sequences and found ones that could create a vaccine. They did this in three days and that was the vaccine. They then spent ten months testing it on humans, but it never changed. It remained the same and it's the same today. Ultimately, we won't need to test on humans. We will be able to test on a million simulated humans which will be much better than testing on a few hundred real humans. And we’ll do it in a few days. We'll be able to actually simulate every possible antidote to any problem. We’ll go through every single problem and come up with solutions very quickly and test them very quickly. We’ll achieve this by the end of this decade. We're going to be able to go through all the different problems that exist in medicine. The way that we've been doing it -- testing with humans -- takes years. And when scientists come up with a new idea, it takes years more to test. Now we can actually test them all, every single possible solution, very quickly. That’s coming now. We saw some of that with the Moderna vaccine.
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Re: key to (reversing) aging discovered / tai chi helps

Postby Peacedog on Sat Jan 21, 2023 1:31 pm

Dementia is a tough one. It seems to strike almost at random. I'm familiar with one case where the subject had severe neuro degeneration by his mid-seventies. Despite both his parents living into their late eighties and mid-nineties respectively will little signs of dementia. No major drug or alcohol problems either. Just bad luck.

Quarterly fasting seems to improve virtually everything in terms of blood markers and is very low risk. FWIW, some studies suggest autophagy peaks at the 96-hour point (i.e. 4 days). I'd start there. I've read papers that suggest taking creatine might help as well.

In any event, you are probably looking at a long-term intervention.

RE: Kurzweil and AI, no amount of AI can conduct the long-term studies that validate the efficacy/safety of a given treatment. Additionally, nothing can build out the production chains quickly to mass produce entirely new technology in less than about a decade. It is simply a matter of the logistics required.

Also keep in mind he is a Boomer who wants to live forever. Their entire cohort will be gone in a decade. Anecdotally Boomers do not seem to be aging as well as their parents. I suspect it was all of the recreational drug use/libertine culture when younger. Hard to say what the issue is, but that they don't age well as a group is something many in medicine comment on with great regularity.
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