Fuzhou dialect: example of unique concepts of same language

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Fuzhou dialect: example of unique concepts of same language

Postby yeniseri on Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:38 pm

I have been seeing this fellow 'shocking" Chinese speakers with his command the both Mandarin and Cantonese along with regional dialects, which appears
unintelligible even to speakers of both main 'languages'. Based on this alone and the explanation of Fuzhou dialect, I can see better in plain sight how language
has influenced CMA depending on the understanding of the specific tradition (language) and evn how pronunciation can distort/change the concept of words in the long run.
A speaker from North China will speak almost perfect Mandarin (Beijing) but when he talks with people from South China, misunderstandings will change perceptions forever!

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Re: Fuzhou dialect: example of unique concepts of same language

Postby everything on Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:28 pm

an always entertaining "genre" on youtube.

guess actual teacher/student would have "hands on" passing on of the knowledge/skills, though.

the "writing'", some say, was from literati who maybe didn't fully understand (not sure I buy this in all/many cases) ...

... and then we have the "lost in translation" issues in English, frameworks, people inventing meanings for shit, etc.

but bottom line none of that matters, I suppose, if it isn't in the body. it seems like if we had to use translations to explain jordan or messi and nobody can make a basket or kick a ball.
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Re: Fuzhou dialect: example of unique concepts of same language

Postby origami_itto on Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:06 am

everything wrote:the "writing'", some say, was from literati who maybe didn't fully understand (not sure I buy this in all/many cases) ...

I'm pretty sure the first two generations of Yangs were illiterate, and the classics attributed to the family more likely came from Wu.
Douglass Wile makes a very convincing case for that provenance in "Lost T'ai-chi Classics from the Late Ch'ing Dynasty"

Which then leads one to the discussion of grasp sparrows tail "Lǎn Qùe Wěi" and lazily tying coat "Lan-zha-yi" being a case of someone misheard someone else during an oral transmission.

Being a Yang stylist I then conclude it was some Chen person who was trying to reverse engineer authentic Taijiquan and restore the marketability of the family art by making it more fighty looking who made the mistake. But to say that would just be to invite a heated argument over a triviality... Oh darn, what have I done?
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Re: Fuzhou dialect: example of unique concepts of same language

Postby Steve James on Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:31 am

Imo, the problem is not the words; the problem is the ideas the speaker/writer meant to convey. Someone can use the same with totally different meanings. I don't know what "peng" means, no matter how it's pronounced. I know what I mean, and what others can explain. If there were one meaning, everyone would agree. The only consensus is the word, even among native Chinese speakers who pronounce the word slightly differently.

Yeah, direct oral transmission is very reliable, but no less susceptible to interpretation. Once we're talking about ideas, it can only be certain that the words have stayed the same. Afa as tcc, I think that's why scholars used "songs" to describe jins and things. That doesn't solve the problem because people made up their own songs, poems, or phrases as descriptions.
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Re: Fuzhou dialect: example of unique concepts of same language

Postby origami_itto on Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:53 am

Steve James wrote:Imo, the problem is not the words; the problem is the ideas the speaker/writer meant to convey. Someone can use the same with totally different meanings. I don't know what "peng" means, no matter how it's pronounced. I know what I mean, and what others can explain. If there were one meaning, everyone would agree. The only consensus is the word, even among native Chinese speakers who pronounce the word slightly differently.

Well in some cases, sure, a rose by any other name, but in others, the names, either proscriptively or post facto often communicate something about the context and meaning of the movement.

Grasp sparrows tail, Yang Cheng Fu explains, refers to taking hold of the opponent's arm. The sparrow's tail, so I've been led to believe, is a common metaphor for this among some martial arts. I'm sure others here might know more about that.
Alex Dong translates it as "Embrace Peacock's Tail".

I don't know the significance of Lazily tying one's coat but I would love to learn more about it.

Another example is "Embrace the tiger to return it to the mountain" which I understand as meeting a ferocious attack gently to throw the attacker on their head. Retreat to ride tiger, yielding to the rushing attack to join. Needle to sea bottom to describe a particular qi na.

I believe the names are significant. For martial application visualization, assuming the proper spirit, and as a medium of cultural transmission and reflection. Present the tablet in the Jian form, for example. Carp leaping the dragon gate.

Yeah, direct oral transmission is very reliable, but no less susceptible to interpretation. Once we're talking about ideas, it can only be certain that the words have stayed the same. Afa as tcc, I think that's why scholars used "songs" to describe jins and things. That doesn't solve the problem because people made up their own songs, poems, or phrases as descriptions.

And then you've got the problem of editorialized translations being a student's first or only exposure to a classic.

At the heart of it, the exercise is what matters, the practice is what matters, but looking up it's higher and higher, looking down it's deeper and deeper. The study of the words and the variations on themes between lineages and flavors is itself fascinating and rewarding in my opinion in considering and developing my own practice.
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Re: Fuzhou dialect: example of unique concepts of same language

Postby Steve James on Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:40 am

I don't know the significance of Lazily tying one's coat but I would love to learn more about it.


That's my point. Lazily Tying Coat can mean something very specific technically/technique-wise and as an idea. However, someone has to tell and demonstrate it. Wave Hands Like Clouds is no different. The words are less important than the idea because one can teach the exact same idea using different words.

Otoh, we're talking about translations from the original Chinese.
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Re: Fuzhou dialect: example of unique concepts of same language

Postby yeniseri on Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:47 pm

Steve James wrote:
I don't know the significance of Lazily tying one's coat but I would love to learn more about it.


That's my point. Lazily Tying Coat can mean something very specific technically/technique-wise and as an idea. However, someone has to tell and demonstrate it. Wave Hands Like Clouds is no different. The words are less important than the idea because one can teach the exact same idea using different words.

Otoh, we're talking about translations from the original Chinese.


You hit the nail on the head!
One of my old teachers per analyses, experience and function, found that there are similarities between shuaijiao and CMA, whether actual, interpretative or utility, (J Wang may remember the article) where shuaijaio function was contained in taijiquan patterns (even his short 24form (Da Shr Zhang Dunsheng!) contained essentials that are/could be trained to make taiji on par with any CMA providing x elements are trained!
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Re: Fuzhou dialect: example of unique concepts of same language

Postby vadaga on Wed Feb 15, 2023 2:42 am

yeniseri wrote:
Steve James wrote:
(J Wang may remember the article) where shuaijaio function was contained in taijiquan patterns (even his short 24form (Da Shr Zhang Dunsheng!) contained essentials that are/could be trained to make taiji on par with any CMA providing x elements are trained!

A friend of mine (another Texas sc practitioner) said the same.
PS for GM Chang- whether you are using Wade-giles or pinyin to romanize it should be 'Chang' - the surname in Chinese is '常'
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