Anybody think there'll be open civil war in Russia?

[everything]

which makes me think rebelling has to do with ... money?

[origami_itto]

which makes me think rebelling has to do with ... money?

Every. Single. Time.

[Steve James]

The criminal investigation into a popular mercenary leader and thousands of his troops was formally closed Tuesday in the wake of their 36-hour armed revolt Russian President Vladimir Putin acknowledged brought his country to the brink of "civil war."

The Federal Security Service said the case won't be pursued because Yevgeny Prigozhin and his Wagner Group fighters “ceased (criminal) activities," ending an insurgency that revealed deep cracks in Putin's authoritarian rule.

"Taking into account this and other circumstances relevant to the investigation, the investigative authority issued a resolution to terminate the criminal case on June 27," the FSB statement said.

[Giles]

18 months after Russia’s internationally illegal invasion started. After a scale of fighting that has brought untold thousands of deaths on both sides, with fighting and conditions that have been reminiscent of both WW1 and WW2, and still ongoing. A war that will leave its scars on generations to come (on the Russian side, too), and also on the economy and the environment of Ukraine. After Bucha and the other comparable, documented events. After continuing Russian strikes on civilian homes and amenities that have killed thousands of civilians, up to and including last night. After Russia’s illegal annexation of invaded land, faux-justified by transparently faked ‘elections’ and ‘election results’ there. After the Russian winter campaign against Ukraine’s power infrastructure, in a crystal-clear attempt to use cold and darkness as a weapon against the civilian population. After the destruction of the Nova Kakhovka dam with all its consequences for people and environment. After all this and more .... you are still calling it “the special military operation”. For a person of your intelligence, I suspect that displaying this degree of Kremlin orthodoxy and fealty might generate at least a little embarassment. Deep down. But if this term is still being specified in the current version of the instructions/policy guide/manual or whatever it is, if you’re still not allowed to say “war”, then I guess you have to stick with it.

[Quigga]

Just saying that the livelihood of your average Russian Joe isn't threatened enough for him to go out on the street and ask for... what exactly? Who's gonna fill in the power gap and how will the vital infrastructure be maintained, i.e. electricity, water?

Nothing is ever purely rationally or emotionally motivated. Humans just don't work that way.

I don't get why it's called civil war when a PMC company you've hired, who employed some of your own nation's people, comes back to bite your arse. Wagner isn't owned by Russia, they merely had a contract. The fact that Russians wanted to attack Russia's capital is a coincidence. They lost their citizenship and loyalty towards their country when they signed up with that group, imo.

Wagner barely has enough weapons to wage war in Ukraine. How would they equip someone with no military experience, if at all? Alexander and his rural comrades may have some AK47s lying around or other stuff.

But the attempted coup shows how desperate the situation is imo. There's a difference between a coup and civil war. A smoothly executed coup is always preferable to civil war.

And tbh, I liked what Prigozhin said about Putin: a psychopath swine, compulisve pathological liar, power hungry egomaniac who needs a glory war to look good at his open coffin display.

Giles, who are you talking to?

[Steve James]

The only difference between calling it a war or a special military operation is whose rockets are landing on whose capitals and civilians. War or smo, battle, combat, are all euphemisms for killing children. Make up any excuse you want to choose a word.

which makes me think rebelling has to do with ... money?

There's a theory that Prigozhin got paid off as part of a plan to enable Wagner in Russia to be folded into the Russian Army. The term of art is "controlled opposition." But, nobody knows this for sure. It's just that financial gain can explain why Prigozhin told the Wagner rebels to turn back.

[yeniseri]

The civil war has started, kind of, but Putin's savage put down of opponents, protest groups, etc shows us that history will repeat itself.
The Wagner 'CEO" showed his independence so he had to leave the space in which Putin is supreme leader for his opwn sake. An old expression stated as such
that "2 man rat cyah live in de same hole" meaning when you have personalities vying to see who is in charge, someone has to go, either voluntarily, being assassinated, poisoned, etc
in the maintenance of the status quo. Quite a few journalists and artists have left and at least 100k and more of Russians have left, realizing the historical record of the past.

[windwalker]

History

kinda depends on many things, like who wrote it...



Last Warning To Ukraine| Prigozhin breaks his silence on the mercenary rebellion in Russia

in clip, they speak about the French foreign legion as an equivalent to the Wagner group..
as the medic of US Infantry squad attended training conducted by the French foreign legion back in the 70s.





very cool and dedicated group of individuals




Russia, considers the encroachment of the US via NATO an existential threat to its security...
As the US did then

"history will repeat itself". quite correct this time it's not an island, there is no ocean as a buffer...
it's directly on their border

How should a leader of Russia respond ?

Having been in the cold war, we respected the USSR at the time.
Find the current path the US is on very dangerous,
feeling somehow its immune from it's actions...ie lack of "respect"

Russia could have ended this conflict at any point...militarily
The US was/is instigator, maybe feeling it's immune, until it's not....

9/11 lets hope the US doesn't need another wake up call...
this time the one making the call has the ability to hang up

[Giles]

Giles, who are you talking to?

To the person who has often referred to Russia's war in Ukraine as the 'special military operation' and who uses that term in this thread.

[Steve James]

There have been reports of Russian generals going missing in the past few days. What do your sources say. Here's Al Jazeera.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=craLJ-7bkZs

[Giles]

The only difference between calling it a war or a special military operation is whose rockets are landing on whose capitals and civilians. War or smo, battle, combat, are all euphemisms for killing children. Make up any excuse you want to choose a word.

I think language is important in situations likes these, Steve. Whereby "killing children" is, so to speak, a very 'good' term. What you see is what you get.
Orwell understood the principle very well, as he showed in "1984". The Ministry of Love for propagating hate, the Ministry of Peace for wageing war, the Ministry of Truth for lies and propaganda. And above all Newspeak, the new version of English specifically conceived and designed to have a limited vocabulary and to omit many words that represented 'dangerous' ideas and concepts. Once everyone spoke only Newspeak, then it would become literally impossible for people to even conceive of and express certain ideas. Sorted .

Maybe we decide that the words "killing" and "murder" are no longer to be used, and will now be replaced with the term "life expectancy readjustment". Or LER. Then we can even make it a criminal offence, punishable by a hefty prison sentence, to use these two words. People are now simply LER'd, which is a much more acceptable and less disturbing process. Less objectionable when we here it has been arranged.
Language affects culture, thoughts, feelings and resulting actions. It can be a weapon. So I think it's important to take it seriously.

[Steve James]

I agree Giles. I just say that "war" is a term people can use to justify their actions. "Killing children and the helpless" is imo much more precise and factual. Special military operation or just military operation are euphemisms to make the operation acceptable. The semantics are meaningful, but irrelevant to the person in the shopping center or apartment house who's bombed to death.

What Orwell made plain was what type of government would ban 1984.

[windwalker]

The US Government Lied About The Ukraine War

[vadaga]

well, as a friend pointed out to me last night, Prigozhin didn't make it 2 months.

[Bao]

well, as a friend pointed out to me last night, Prigozhin didn't make it 2 months.

And still no civil war