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Re: Vaslav Klaus tells it like it is ...

PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 11:55 pm
by Ian

Without looking at the video, I KNEW this couldn't be about pesticides in water or overfishing or carcinogens. It had to be about big bad scary communist climate change.

Mike, you don't hate climate change, you fear climate change. Don't you, Mike? ;D

Re: Vaslav Klaus tells it like it is ...

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:04 am
by Mike Strong
Look, elitists want to control everything, - they wanted to control everything in the name of The People, and now they want to control everything in the name of Mother Earth ...

... and it's funny, they want to use the same "solutions", - the same programs to save the earth as they wanted to use to save the "people".

If you can't see the logic, you're capacity for critical thinking is lacking.

... I-mon, I know you would like to be IGNORED, - but yhou are not worthy ! ;)

Re: Vaslav Klaus tells it like it is ...

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:23 am
by Walter Joyce
Disagreeing with your viewpoint doesn't make a person a sheep.

There are many here on this board who are capable of critical thought that disagree with your viewpoint.

The fact that there are differing views on the environmental crisis is nothing new, but if you are going to put forth a proponent of your viewpoint, you might be better served to point to someone with a degree in Earth related science, and not an economist.

Re: Vaslav Klaus tells it like it is ...

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:43 am
by Mike Strong
Dr. Edward Wegman - former chairman of the Committee on Applied and Theoretical Statistics of the National Academy of Sciences ... destroys the famous "hockey stick" graph that launched the global warming panic.

Dr. David Bromuvich

Prof. David Reiter

Prof. Hendrik Tennekes

Dr. Christopher Landsea

Dr. Anonino Zichichi

Dr. Zbigniew Jaworowski

Prof. Tom V. Segalstad

Dr. Syun-Ichi Akasofo

Dr. Claude Allegre

Dr. Richard Lindzen

Dr. Habibullo Abdussanatov

Dr. Richard Toll

Dr. Sami Solanki - director and scientific member at the Max Planck Institute For Solar System Research in Germany, who argues that changes in the Sun's state, not human activity, may be the principal cause of global warming: " The Sun has been at it's strongest over the past 60 years and may now be affectting global temperatures".

Prof. Freeman Dyson

Dr. Eigils Friis-Christensen

... no, I think Vaslav Klaus hits the nail on the head ! Because after all, this Henny Penny bullshit is about taking control of society, and has nothing to do with Climate Change ! :-\

Re: Vaslav Klaus tells it like it is ...

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:16 am
by mixjourneyman
We have past evidence of cultures that were destroyed because of environmental degradation. For instance, there are very few natives left on the Easter Islands due to deforestation.
If we look at other environmental problems, consider the smog in any major US city or China in general. Its bad enough that people develop health problems because of it.
My mother and sister are both allergic to pesticides, which means that when they walk past a house that the pesticide guys have sprayed, they get sore throats.

Mike, that sand must be nice and comfortable, since you seem to have your head stuck pretty deep in it on many important issues ;D

Re: Vaslav Klaus tells it like it is ...

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:17 am
by Steve James
For the sake of argument, here are some notes about the people in Mike's list and what they actually said.

* Dr. Edward Wegman, a mathematician, said "We were not asked to assess the reality of global warming and indeed this is not an area of our expertise."

* Dr. David Bromwich - his research is based primarily on single site assessments at Amundsen-Scott Research Station. He does not deny the reality of anthropogenic climate change.

* Prof. Paul Reiter has not denied the reality of global warming, he has merely questioned the relationship between it and the effects on mosquito-borne diseases. He sits on the council of an organization called the 'Annapolis Centre for Science-Based Public Policy' which has received $763,500 in funding from ExxonMobil.

* Prof. Hendrik Tennekes is an aeronautical engineer. His opinion matters why?

* Dr. Christopher Landsea has said "we certainly see substantial warming in the ocean and atmosphere over the last several decades ..., and I have no doubt a portion of that, at least, is due to greenhouse warming."

* Dr. Antonino Zichichi has made a career out of controversy. He is widely ridiculed in the scientific community for his error-strewn publications.

* Dr. Richard Lindzen is also a member of 'Annapolis Centre for Science-Based Public Policy' which receives major funding from ExxonMobil. He also works for 'Cato Institute' - again funded by ExxonMobil.

* Dr. Zbigniew Jaworowski is criticised by Professor Hans Oeschger who says that some of Jaworowski claims are "drastically wrong from the physical point of view".

* Dr. Syun-Ichi Akasofu - "it is in the best interests of mankind to reduce the rate of increase of our release of CO2 ... Prominent climate change is in progress in the Arctic"

* Dr. Claude Allegre - 20 years ago in "Clés pour la géologie", he wrote "By burning fossil fuels, man increased the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere which, for example, has raised the global mean temperature by half a degree in the last century". He now says "The cause of this climate change is unknown".

* Dr. Habibullo Abdussamatov claims that solar activity is the main contributor to climate change have been discredited - ...

* Dr. Richard Tol, an economist, does not deny the reality of anthropogenic climate change, he has merely debated the economic impact.

* Dr. Sami Solanki - "since about 1980, while the total solar radiation, its ultraviolet component, and the cosmic ray intensity all exhibit the 11-year solar periodicity, there has otherwise been no significant increase in their values. In contrast, the Earth has warmed up considerably within this time period. This means that the Sun is not the cause of the present global warming."

* Prof. Freeman Dyson - "One of the main causes of warming is the increase of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere resulting from our burning of fossil fuels such as oil and coal and natural gas."

* Dr. Eigils Friis-Christensen does not deny the reality of anthropogenic climate change and does not suggest that the sun "could account for most of the warming" -

Re: Vaslav Klaus tells it like it is ...

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:33 am
by Ian
Regarding the sun's role in climate change, direct measurements of solar output since 1978 show a steady rise and fall over the 11-year sunspot cycle, but no upwards or downward trend . Also, there is no trend in direct measurements of the Sun's ultraviolet output and in cosmic rays. So for the period for which we have direct, reliable records, the Earth has warmed dramatically even though there has been no corresponding rise in any kind of solar activity.

This is from a letter James Hansen wrote to Aussie PM Kevin Rudd early this year:

Global climate is near critical tipping points that could lead to loss of all summer sea ice in the Arctic with detrimental effects on wildlife, initiation of ice sheet disintegration in West Antarctica and Greenland with progressive, unstoppable global sea level rise, shifting of climatic zones with extermination of many animal and plant species, reduction of freshwater supplies for hundreds of millions of people, and a more intense hydrologic cycle with stronger droughts and forest fires, but also heavier rains and floods, and stronger storms driven by latent heat, including tropical storms, tornados and thunderstorms.

You probably don't know who James Hansen is, so in his own words:

For the sake of identification, I am a United States citizen, director of the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies and Adjunct Professor at the Columbia University Earth Institute. I am a member of our National Academy of Sciences, have testified before our Senate and House of Representatives on many occasions, have advised our Vice President and Cabinet members on climate change and its relation to energy requirements, and have received numerous awards including the World Wildlife Fund's Duke of Edinburgh Conservation Medal from Prince Philip.

Dude, since when did the freaking Soviet bloc become a news source for freedom-loving Americans? Klaus gets his information where? And Hansen represents what? Freaking NASA, that's what. Where were you during the Cold War?! This is a textbook Communist ploy to spread disinformation and sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids.

Just to be clear, Mike, you're talking about Climate Change, not environmentalism. I assume you don't believe that, say, DDT was a great idea. Without the US ban on DDT, there'd be more breast cancer, more dumb babies, and no more bald eagles.

And that's what freedom's all about - eagles, titties, and the children.

Re: Vaslav Klaus tells it like it is ...

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:34 am
by Steve James
That said, the sun could still wipe us out at any time. Or, the Earth itself could either explode, or change the angle of its orbit, or attract a comet, or get hit by a gamma ray blast. All could happen. However, we can't really do much about them. We may be able to affect global warming. There are just not enough good reasons for us not to try.

Well, I also wonder about labeling "environmentalism" as an ism like communism. Actually, I agree with the point that certain people use environmental issues as a way to achieve personal power. And, we could say the same thing about "consumerism," which usually goes hand in hand with environmentalism. Yeah, and Ralph Nader is running for President ... right?

OK, all the failures noted about "isms" are certainly true of "capitalists" and capitalism. In fact, no one is more elitist than a capitalist. They just think they deserve power because they have money, instead of intellect, athletic ability or royal birth. And, why exactly is "individualism" less elitist than "elitism" but better than "collectivism"? Why is it that one "ism" is automatically superior and more desirable than another? Can't the banner of "individualism" be just as perverted by people as any other "ideology"?

Re: Vaslav Klaus tells it like it is ...

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 7:39 am
by Darthwing Teorist
Yeah, I don't trust anything coming out of the Eastern block. The corruption there is mind blowing and in Romania at least, almost every politician is out for himself even if it means selling his own mother to raping cannibalistic pagans.

Re: Vaslav Klaus tells it like it is ...

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 7:52 am
by juz
Ian wrote:
And that's what freedom's all about - eagles, titties, and the children. new sig, if thats ok by you Ian?

Re: Vaslav Klaus tells it like it is ...

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 8:44 am
by edededed
Wow, nice summary, Steve. (Lists are useless without background information - thanks for that.)

Re: Vaslav Klaus tells it like it is ...

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 9:08 am
by mixjourneyman
You Liberal group thinking bunch of sissy boys! I'm putting you all on my ignore list. IGNORED!!!!! >:(

Re: Vaslav Klaus tells it like it is ...

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 9:21 am
by Walter Joyce
Steve, thank you for doing the background work on all of that.

Mike, I was suspicious when I saw a list of names with no position statements or credentials listed.

As a number of posts have illustrated in this thread, we are not the sheep you label us to be, we actually understand the critical thinking process, are capable of researching issues, recognizing the issues presented and the weight and credibility of the arguments on the issues.

The most important trait anyone can bring to any discussion is credibility. Your posts diminish your credibility by the tone you seem to be so fond of and your failure to provide anything beyond your own opinion and your ability to point to people who MAY share that opinion.

NONE of us have all the answers, but by sharing the discussion we gain the value of perspectives from those here among us who have good information on a variety of topics. Hopefully that process brings us all closer to understanding things beyond our individual expertise.

If we can move beyond convenient labels and find common ground who knows what can be accomplished. I would think that all of us share the discipline that goes with achieving any kind of proficiency in martial arts. For me at least, I learned from that process that change is gradual, and takes consistent and honest effort. I believe that lesson cuts across most disciplines and ways of life.

Re: Vaslav Klaus tells it like it is ...

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 9:31 am
by steelincotton
Nice general summary info here:

Our water:
As prevailing winds and ocean currents carry PCBs toward the poles, these chemicals are still increasing in cetacean tissue in Antarctic and northern Pacific waters. There has been little or no decline in the widespread persistent organochlorine chemical pollution of marine animal tissue since the mid 1980s.

Large cetaceans carry PCBs and structurally similar chemicals at or above the concentrations that are linked with significant neurological impairment in humans. Current background levels of PCBs, dioxins, and furans in humans have been found to alter thyroid hormone levels and weaken the offspring’s immune system.

Mercury contamination of both freshwater and marine mammal tissue is increasing at a startling rate in some parts of the world. Mercury’s effect on the nervous system and intelligence is well documented. Recent findings suggest that the immune systems of some cetaceans, e.g. beluga whales, are exceptionally sensitive to mercury.

Organotin (organic tin) compounds, such as those found in paint used on ships, continue to pose a threat to cetaceans’ food base and perhaps directly to their health. Organotin compounds interfere with sex organ development, often readily visible in marine animals lower in the trophic system, and interfere with reproductive success. They also attack the thymus gland, suppressing immune function.

The atmospheric transport of currently-used pesticides to the Arctic, where they accumulate at the air-water interface, ice edges, and in surface fog, poses both a direct and indirect threat to cetaceans. Among these newly discovered compounds are several herbicides designed to inhibit photosynthesis. Their effects on essential algal and diatom blooms must be investigated for possible disturbance of the foundation of the food web on which cetaceans depend. These chemicals are invading the cetacean summering grounds where whales feast before they move south to fast for as long as six months. The herbicides are found in the highest concentrations at the same time of the year as the critical annual algal bloom.

Today 40 percent of our waters are still too polluted for fishing and swimming. --CNN, Transcript of Clinton Remarks July 30 at New River

Re: Vaslav Klaus tells it like it is ...

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 9:40 am
by nianfong
.Q. wrote:
Scientists agree that one big hiccup from our sun, and it's Goodnight Vienna for life on Planet Earth, ...
... but suggest that The Sun, ( and not human activity ) is the most likely source of climate change, and you are branded a heritic.

There's an issue w/ the logic here.
A CAN do B does not equal to A IS doing B. Also, assuming the Sun is the most likely source of climate change, it still does not affect whether human activity is ALSO causing climate change. It might, of course, affect the focus of your efforts to help alleviate the problem, which will probably involve a change in human activity anyway.

BTW: how do you directly quote someone using this new software? I didn't see a "reply" button.

use the "quote" button. just like the old software.