4th Grader Suspended for bringing shell casing to school

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Re: 4th Grader Suspended for bringing shell casing to school

Postby Dmitri on Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:08 am

dragontigerpalm wrote:Additionally, the teacher and school official gave up the opportunity (if they were even capable) of being and behaving like teachers. They could just as easily have asked the student about the shell casing and then explained why in today's world such souveniers are deemed inappropriate in schools. Lesson given and lesson learned would have been a much better outcome.

That is a HUGE problem right there. People are being removed from interfering in... well, in life, removed from making decisions, thinking for themselves and instead are encouraged to defer to the "proper authorities." They are being instilled with indecisiveness and over-reliance on (and fear of) government, AND the worst of it all is that this is what the kids are being taught from day one.

I can almost feel the "Soviet Union" type of thing creeping up, closer and closer. The infrastructure is almost all in place, and some of it (like social security DB, etc.) is already far, far more advanced than the soviets could ever dream of. Implanted chips are coming eventually; the universal IDs that have all your records and financial data linked together, etc.

Take away the obviously-sci-fi elements (like Pre-Cogs) from the 'Minority Report', and that movie is suddenly not at all as far-fetched as some might think.


WE'RE ALL GONNA DIIIIIIIIIEEEEE!!! ;D

Nah, what am I thinking, -- Obama will save us! He will make things right, won't he, "Teh R34l Change" is just around the corner, people are starving for "the Good Tsar", so here he comes, rejoice one and all!! ::) :-X


All the jokes aside though... Some scary shit is brewing I think, I do see soviet-like stuff here and there and it ain't getting any better.

Oh well, c'est la vie, right?
We'll do what the mere mortals always do -- wait and see...
Last edited by Dmitri on Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4th Grader Suspended for bringing shell casing to school

Postby meeks on Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:15 pm

Walter Joyce wrote:
meeks wrote:
You realize that you just flamed me, as I am a resident of Massachusetts.

there's no judgement here, friend
*snicker...Massachussets...* :P
(kinda the pot calling the kettle black as I'm Canadian...)


Not sure I grasp what you are trying to say there, care to clarify? It seems like you are agreeing on something but I'm not sure what. Either I'm obtuse or the internet has a damper on effective communication sometimes.


well, I was trying to be funny. Only having resided in the US for about 2 years, I know nothing about issues with people from Massachussetts, so I'm not sure why all those guys were roasting on MA State residents when the real issue is with a couple of school officials.

I was trying to do a "there's no judgement passed on you for being from MA...(hehe...he's from MA)..." kinda joke - thought it would make you laugh a bit. C'mon Walter, you know me, always trying to play the lighter side when I get the chance. In any case it's not as funny when I type in an explanation.... *sigh*.. -shrug-
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Re: 4th Grader Suspended for bringing shell casing to school

Postby Michael on Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:11 pm

Repeat after me:
"Meeks is not funny,
Meeks is not funny"

;D
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Re: 4th Grader Suspended for bringing shell casing to school

Postby Michael on Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:13 pm

Dmitri, I feel ya, homey. The Man's appetite for control seems to be all-consuming.
"but we’re going to hunt down that last point-one percent and say: ‘you’ve gotta get inside, you gotta cut it out, and you gotta distance.’” —Mayor Garcetti
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Re: 4th Grader Suspended for bringing shell casing to school

Postby Walter Joyce on Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:23 am

meeks,

sorry, my bad.

Back to topic, suspending someone for a week from grade school is not "draconian".

I hate to have to say this, but can you say Colombine... and its aftermath?

Grammar school is not where one goes to learn gun safety, for children they should learn it from the parents.

I think you guys are glossing over the reality of running a public school. And running a public school so that it is protected from the potential liability from law suits means that the limited funds they have will be spent on education, and not on paying settlements or judgments and such an approach is just being fiscally responsible.

Speculating about a regulation 10 years from now that would bar educational funds is just that, speculation.

Dealing with gun safety at a public school where a large number of the parents are likely anti-gun (it is Massachusetts) would not allow for discussions about ammo and how to handle guns, that would open doors to liability as well. If as an public learning institution that teaches kids between the ages of 6 and 12 you have a policy about teaching gun safety, how high do you think your insurance premium would be?

Whether the school's action was an overreaction is not nearly as black and white when you consider everything I posted above.

And I don't think we are headed (at least not yet) towards a Soviet Union type government as far as the ability to make personal decisions is concerned, at least not if Bush actually leaves office next year.


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Re: 4th Grader Suspended for bringing shell casing to school

Postby MikeC on Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:10 am

Walter Joyce wrote:meeks,

sorry, my bad.

Back to topic, suspending someone for a week from grade school is not "draconian".


The punishment should fit the crime. In this case it clearly didn't. There should've been a sentencing recommendation...lol.

I hate to have to say this, but can you say Colombine... and its aftermath?


Boogeyman

Grammar school is not where one goes to learn gun safety, for children they should learn it from the parents.


IIRC from some older friends of mine, they used to. Used to do it in Boy Scouts as well. They used to have shooting clubs at school(or after school, I don't remember which). My friend used to be able to take his rifle right on the school bus with him.

I think you guys are glossing over the reality of running a public school. And running a public school so that it is protected from the potential liability from law suits means that the limited funds they have will be spent on education, and not on paying settlements or judgments and such an approach is just being fiscally responsible.


Well I clearly think this could've easily been a discretionary matter handled easily by the masters of the school. "Hey kid, that's a nice souvenir, but leave it home next time, Ok?"

And I don't think we are headed (at least not yet) towards a Soviet Union type government as far as the ability to make personal decisions is concerned, at least not if Bush actually leaves office next year.


And if IIRC, Mass also had an incident where a kid was suspended for pointing his middle finger at a kid and yelling "Bang!" Maybe it was Mass or another similar state, can't remember. But the idea is that kids and society are getting overfed with this ridiculous, politically-correct horseshit.


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Re: 4th Grader Suspended for bringing shell casing to school

Postby dragontigerpalm on Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:34 am

Walter Joyce wrote:meeks,

sorry, my bad.

Back to topic, suspending someone for a week from grade school is not "draconian".

I hate to have to say this, but can you say Colombine... and its aftermath?

Grammar school is not where one goes to learn gun safety, for children they should learn it from the parents.

I think you guys are glossing over the reality of running a public school. And running a public school so that it is protected from the potential liability from law suits means that the limited funds they have will be spent on education, and not on paying settlements or judgments and such an approach is just being fiscally responsible.

Speculating about a regulation 10 years from now that would bar educational funds is just that, speculation.

Dealing with gun safety at a public school where a large number of the parents are likely anti-gun (it is Massachusetts) would not allow for discussions about ammo and how to handle guns, that would open doors to liability as well. If as an public learning institution that teaches kids between the ages of 6 and 12 you have a policy about teaching gun safety, how high do you think your insurance premium would be?

Whether the school's action was an overreaction is not nearly as black and white when you consider everything I posted above.

And I don't think we are headed (at least not yet) towards a Soviet Union type government as far as the ability to make personal decisions is concerned, at least not if Bush actually leaves office next year.


Hello Dimitri, how have you been?

Maybe we read different articles about this incident. This boy is a 10 year old not a 10th grader. He brought an empty shell casing not a live round that he received from a veteran who was a participant in the recent Memorial Day celebration.
From the article I read:
"The Toy Town Elementary School fourth-grader had received two empty rifle shell casings from blanks used during the town celebration held at the GAR Park Monday morning.

He brought one of the casings with him to school the next day.


Her son had been given the two blank shells by a uniformed veteran who participated in the ceremony Monday. Bradley gave one to his grandfather and kept the other souvenir for himself.

Having received the souvenir from an adult, he never considered it wrong for him to have it, his mother said.

“He was so proud to have been given them. His dad’s a veteran, his uncle’s a veteran, both his grandfathers are veterans. Memorial Day is a big thing to us. It’s a very important holiday and we have a big celebration every year,” Ms. Geslak said. "

This boy did not engage in a random act of strange or threatening behavior. There's no Columbine here nor is discussing gun safety relevant.
Needless liability concern and/or the personal beliefs of the teacher and school official are most likely the cause of what triggered a knee jerk over reaction which IMO resulted in excessive and severe punishment. With further regard to the expense involved with liability I have no doubt and would bet dollars to donuts that had the boy's mother informed the school official at the time that her son would be represented by an attorney the school administration would have immediately reconsidered its position.
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Re: 4th Grader Suspended for bringing shell casing to school

Postby TaoJoannes on Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:49 am

Well, I think the only correct course of action is obviously to also suspend anyone found holding a rock in their hand, as the greater density as a factor of total volume and aerodynamic shape would make it a much more dangerous weapon than an empty shell casing.

For that matter, pencils are highly suspect and dangerous as well.

I'm even getting a little nervous thinking about the damage one of those little twerps could do with a hard-cover book.

Shit, let's just close the schools down, it's too dangerous!
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Re: 4th Grader Suspended for bringing shell casing to school

Postby Steve James on Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:18 am

Almost everyone has agreed that the punishment may have been excessive. We don't agree on what the punishment means about the (MA) society or whether there should be punishment.

Then, the arguments get confused. On one hand, people say that the teacher should have said "no, johnny, we don't bring empty shell casings to school." On the other hand, they argue, "but, kids used to be able to bring rifles to class. what's wrong with that?"

Sorry, imo, it is about gun safety. As I said in my first post, the issue is not the child or the 4th grade teacher who may have never seen a bullet (live or spent) in her life, it's about the parents. If "you" tell your kid that it's ok, or should be, to take casings to class, cool. If another parent thinks that it's not a good idea, suck it up. Personally, I tend to think that this case is brought up only to support a certain position on gun control. I.e., that anyone who is concerned about abuse, misuse and carelessness with guns is a commie, liberal, fascist, politically correct, atheist and un-American.
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Re: 4th Grader Suspended for bringing shell casing to school

Postby dragontigerpalm on Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:38 am

Steve James wrote:Almost everyone has agreed that the punishment may have been excessive. We don't agree on what the punishment means about the (MA) society or whether there should be punishment.

Then, the arguments get confused. On one hand, people say that the teacher should have said "no, johnny, we don't bring empty shell casings to school." On the other hand, they argue, "but, kids used to be able to bring rifles to class. what's wrong with that?"

Sorry, imo, it is about gun safety. As I said in my first post, the issue is not the child or the 4th grade teacher who may have never seen a bullet (live or spent) in her life, it's about the parents. If "you" tell your kid that it's ok, or should be, to take casings to class, cool. If another parent thinks that it's not a good idea, suck it up. Personally, I tend to think that this case is brought up only to support a certain position on gun control. I.e., that anyone who is concerned about abuse, misuse and carelessness with guns is a commie, liberal, fascist, politically correct, atheist and un-American.

While you might be right about the motivation behind the genesis of this thread there really is nothing IMO regarding the content of the article and the issues involved that has anything to do with gun safety.
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Re: 4th Grader Suspended for bringing shell casing to school

Postby Steve James on Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:06 am

Well, don't you think that if the teacher knew more about shells, he/she might have handled the situation differently? There is no difference "to me" between gun knowledge or possession and gun safety. One should not exist without the other.
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Re: 4th Grader Suspended for bringing shell casing to school

Postby MikeC on Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:47 am

What dragon said..
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Re: 4th Grader Suspended for bringing shell casing to school

Postby dragontigerpalm on Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:56 pm

Steve James wrote:Well, don't you think that if the teacher knew more about shells, he/she might have handled the situation differently? There is no difference "to me" between gun knowledge or possession and gun safety. One should not exist without the other.

Honestly, while I would hope that it would make a difference, I don't believe the end result would have been different. I'm inclined to think that it wasn't lack of knowledge regarding ballistics but the school officials' connotative perception of what a shell casing signifies that determined the outcome. I imagine that a similar though maybe more tempered response would have occured had a student brought in a vet's empty holster, a marksmanship award or even a war service medal.
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Re: 4th Grader Suspended for bringing shell casing to school

Postby Steve James on Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:12 pm

Well, I guess that means that if you had been the teacher, the school would have forced you to turn the kid in. I think differently. I disagree about the war service medal etc, and the whole idea that institutions think. People, school boards, decide what the policies should be. If the people in that region disagree with the decision, it'll be changed. I guess then the family will sue the school for a billion dollars for pain and suffering.
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Re: 4th Grader Suspended for bringing shell casing to school

Postby TaoJoannes on Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:15 pm

dragontigerpalm wrote:
Steve James wrote:Well, don't you think that if the teacher knew more about shells, he/she might have handled the situation differently? There is no difference "to me" between gun knowledge or possession and gun safety. One should not exist without the other.

Honestly, while I would hope that it would make a difference, I don't believe the end result would have been different. I'm inclined to think that it wasn't lack of knowledge regarding ballistics but the school officials' connotative perception of what a shell casing signifies that determined the outcome. I imagine that a similar though maybe more tempered response would have occured had a student brought in a vet's empty holster, a marksmanship award or even a war service medal.


OH, I don't know about all that. The media is turning this little flap into far more of a symbol than I'm sure anyone involved directly ever considered was possible.

Teachers walk a fine line, every parent thinks they know what's best for their kid and every other kid in school, and every parent has a voice that can be heard if they're willing to scream loud enough.

The ones that scream loud enough are generally the ones that

a) have too much time on their hands to begin with
b) are overly invested emotionally in the issues they're screaming about
c) are fucking twits

I think the school acted poorly, which most sensible folks, I'm sure, agree with. I mean, it's not a weapon, it's a shell casing. But you can bet your ass there would be 50 pissed of parents at the PTA meeting if word got out that some kid was carrying around LIVE AMMUNITION THAT COULD MAYBE HAVE TRACE GUNPOWDER RESIDUE THAT COULD BLOW UP YOUR SCHOOLS!

If you have kids, get involved with the PTA and make these small minded fucksticks realize how dumb they sound. It's hard work, but if you care, you'll do it. Or if you're an over-emotional fucking twit with too much time on your hands, I mean.

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