Mechanics vs. Energy

[LaoDan]

I personally have a suspicion that when people emphasize qi/chi, they often do not really know how to explain what is going on in modern terms; they do not sufficiently understand how the body works. People often have a need to feel special, and religious beliefs reinforce the egotistical tendencies of humans to think that they can obtain special powers through our ability to use our brains. We seek to unite with a universal consciousness, and obtain immortality, and be one with the energy of the universe, and go to heaven or some other “higher” plane of existence…

Primitive cultures did not understand what enabled living things to be animated, especially animals, so came up with various ideas in various cultures, e.g., Qi/Chi in China, Prana in India, Anima (as in the root word for animal, animate/inanimate, animated…) in the West, and a Soul in many cultures, and religions in most cultures… But these cultural beliefs/explanations only offer POSSIBLE explanations, and often ones that cannot be dis-proven.

In “The Power of Chi” preview film, athletes were used who were seeking a competitive edge in their sport. Their minds were already searching for something outside of their current physical training that would produce some effect that they do not currently understand and that would produce some effect that they think could possibly give them an advantage over their competition. They were LOOKING FOR some force that was not already possible through their current physical training. The qi/chi explanation would have been attractive to them regardless of whether the effect was produced energetically or mechanically (they would tend to attribute it to energy in this situation).

Today we know that magicians do not really perform “magic” but are really tricking us because our minds cannot understand how the effect is produced; therefore “magic TRICKS.” Still, many people pay money knowing that magic is entertainment and is not real. Some still believe that there is real magic, or believe in the possibilities of “superhuman” abilities (e.g., phychic powers; telekinesis,  telepathy, clairvoyance, mind reading…), and many want to believe in angels or fairies or other “superstitious” powers (including, from my perspective, the power of prayer).

So, to me, the demonstrations of qi/chi powers like the “unbendable arm” and using just one’s fingers to push someone back, are just demonstrating things that are not understandable to most people. But they are not magic powers. Both of these examples can taught to people who have never heard of qi/chi, have never “cultivated” it, and can be taught to do it in a very short time.

So, are these demonstrations purposely fraudulent? Possibly, but not necessarily. The performer of the “unbendable arm” can sincerely believe that it is their ability to send qi/chi through their arm that is providing them with the ability to keep it unbent, without realizing that their imagination (note: thinking of the arm like a fire hose shooting water through it can produce the same effect, even with untrained individuals ignorant of qi/chi) is changing the way that they are PHYSICALLY responding to the pressure being put against their arm in the attempt to bend it.

The same could be said to be happening with the pushing someone with just the fingers demonstration. While Rob’s video showed that instruction in mechanical advantage can produce the same effect as Adam’s qi/chi demonstration, that does not mean that Adam is purposely being fraudulent. He approaches TJQ from a very metaphysical (hermetic) side that tends to make his practice and teaching more mystical than mechanical. He could very well be believing that he is simply sending his qi/chi down under the “opponent’s” root to produce the demonstrated unbalancing effect, without realizing that the thought, itself, changes how he physically interacts with the other person’s mass. Thinking that one’s energy is going downward makes it less likely that his physical force will push directly back against the force/mass of the “opponent” [direct = the “not using qi/chi” version of the demonstration] and would allow him to use the mechanical advantage demonstrated in the video by Rob.

Does this mean that Rob and Adam are using the same method to do their demonstrations? Physically, probably; but mentally, probably not. Still, they could be doing something different even though the effect looks the same; this cannot be ruled out (therefore allowing both sides of potential debates to stand firmly behind their perspectives). But that they are doing the same thing, even though they may not understand it to be the same, also cannot be ruled out. Therefore, any argument about the beliefs underlying these demonstrations probably can never be entirely resolved.

My opinion is that these types of demonstrations may illustrate what the performer’s believe to be qi/chi powers, but are probably physical principles that people, often including the performers themselves, do not sufficiently understand. Being able to produce the same effect using different intellectual means (qi/chi vs. mechanics, for example), does not mean that either is WRONG. To me, it does indicate that the qi/chi demonstration is unsatisfactory for demonstrating a special power if it can be duplicated using a purely mechanical approach.

MODERATORS: I’m sorry to drag this topic out, but the other threads were closed before I decided if I would post my opinion, and what I would say. It is fine with me if this new thread is immediately closed.

[Michael Babin]

Thanks for that and I hope it is allowed to stand. You summarized a difficult subject very well in my opinion.

[wayne hansen]

Yes I remember when Rugby League players trained Ballet to get that edge
We still don’t know if those in the doco went there to gain something or were being paid to make a film
In the early years I taught a lot of seminars
I had some hard men come along to test me out
It is easy in that situation to control what goes on
It is like pushing you just ride the energy
No one is there to kill you
Most people are polite
UFC proves that
They follow the rules

[Bao]

Does this mean that Rob and Adam are using the same method to do their demonstrations? Physically, probably; but mentally, probably not. Still, they could be doing something different even though the effect looks the same; this cannot be ruled out (therefore allowing both sides of potential debates to stand firmly behind their perspectives). But that they are doing the same thing, even though they may not understand it to be the same, also cannot be ruled out. Therefore, any argument about the beliefs underlying these demonstrations probably can never be entirely resolved.

My opinion is that these types of demonstrations may illustrate what the performer’s believe to be qi/chi powers, but are probably physical principles that people, often including the performers themselves, do not sufficiently understand. Being able to produce the same effect using different intellectual means (qi/chi vs. mechanics, for example), does not mean that either is WRONG. To me, it does indicate that the qi/chi demonstration is unsatisfactory for demonstrating a special power if it can be duplicated using a purely mechanical approach.

I have no idea how you come the conclusion that Adam do something else mentally when you can’t see anything different, only hear that he speaks about “qi”.

Even if there’s something different between what he does compared to Rob, would that mean that what one of them does is more useful for actual combat?

How do you actually apply what is shown in a real confrontation? How do you use it to actually finishing a fight?

[RobP3]

.

[RobP3]

Yes. And presumably if it were projected "chi energy" no contact would be required? Or maybe some type of contact that didn't require the very particular set up position that we both demonstrated?

[Quigga]

What would you like to do with such a 'power' / ability

Why is it bothering you that it may be out there

Dunno what they were called, but 'abilities' can have one get stuck

Smart usage is another

If you don't regard other people exactly the same as your self, it won't work - it's one world - we have the ability to unify / divide

Too much division it's broken
Too much unifying it's clumped up together

Either way I think you're looking for the truth of the matter

Not up to me to say what's true and what not, up to you to find out

Good for wanting to look out for other people

There is nothing special except that which one wants to point out