bailewen wrote:Glen,
And I find the topic interesting enough and your "theories" worth discussing. Even with the context you have added though, that just makes a "school of thought" and still a long way from "fact".
Change you posting style...or not. It's not big deal to me. I'm just saying that I see where Segs is coming from. His criticism is really not that far out of left field is all.
Ok.
Like I said to Shawn, I will abide, or rather I will try to abide. But I honestly don't know how to even go about it.
Since you brought up 'Bolang Jin', here's an old post from that thread, plus it has some of the other things mentioned. So maybe you can insert some edits that would make it compliant with what you, Finny, and Shawn are asking:
D_Glenn wrote:We can never really know the actual history and the links between the different lineages of Chinese Martial Arts. We can make deductions about the sources but even that is difficult because it relies on finding similar practices and teachings, which because they were martial and for fighting, that it made sense to keep information close to one's heart so you're enemies wouldn't know it, and the material was kept to oral instructions, usually not written down, and the different styles sometimes used their own terminology to describe the same things. So while we can see a very similar end result of the physical practices in the various Chinese martial arts, (as the human body only functions in so many ways), but we only have a few similar connection through the written materials with the other (fairly new; late 1800s) martial styles that had come from the same, older root martial systems.
So, essentially, Baguazhang's only link to other, older martial systems is through Dong Haichuan and we can look at how he took concepts from many different Chinese martial arts and fused them into one cohesive system and because it's based around and upon the Daoist Cultivation practices, which use the Eight Trigrams to describe the cultivation practices, he named his new art after the Eight Trigrams and developed a curriculum that follows the Bagua and uses it to explain many different aspects of his whole martial system.3、眼神内观注以沉入丹田的内气,心意使此内气沉到会阴穴,由会阴穴向后入尾闾内成片状气流样形态在向后内后臀、腰、背腔壁向上运行至大椎穴咽喉龙、双肩内腔壁向前胸腹内腔壁下行至会阴,此为一周。如此循环往复的修炼,此为“波浪劲”的法式,为乾阳顺行;内气成片状气流样从会阴穴向前少腹、大腹、前胸内腔壁运行至喉咙、向后过双肩内腔壁,沿后背、腰、臀内腔壁下行至会阴,此为一周。如此循环往复的修炼,此为“翻浪劲”的法式,为坤阴逆行。
{The normal cycle of the Daoist internal practices, and in the martial art, we sink energy to the perineum, bring it through the 'Tailbone gate' up through the 'middle gate', up the spine to the 'upper gate', then back down the front, returning to the perineum and dantian. This is the 'Bolang Jin' route and is also called the '乾阳顺行' Qian [Trigram] Yang, 'Moving With'.
The opposite route, going up the front of the abdomen, chest, throat, coming down the spine, etc. is 'Fanlang Jin' and is also called the '坤阴逆行' Kun [Trigram] Yin, 'Moving Against'.}
The structure of Baguazhang's martial system follows the Post-Heaven Bagua Symbol, and a student starts with the 乾卦 Qián Trigram ☰ which consists of simple to complex methods and techniques to strike, throw, grapple, submit, and some basic leg-attacking methods. It's strategies and tactics are also simple to more complex and the 'changes' are more mechanically/ method-based, rather than conceptual/ internally-based. All of it's varied techniques make use of 'Bolang Jin' in combination with the waist to add power to an attack.
The 坤卦 Kūn Trigram ☷ contains all the techniques, strategies, tactics, and 'changes' that make use of 'Fanlang Jin' but it doesn't really contain techniques of it's own as it's just using a 'reversal' of the techniques found in the other Trigram systems and uses 'Fanlang Jin' in combination with the waist to 'remove' (卸 Xie) the power in the opponent's attack. Because it requires a high development of internal cultivation in order to safely do 'Fanlang Jin', the changes and subsequent affect on the opponent is also of a more internal nature; more of a subtle feeling or a concept-based method to change and transform the opponent's attack, which can be immediately followed by an overt attack. Where the Qian Trigram uses continuous, overt attacks to force the opponent to try and change, adapt, transform to your attacks.
Since the Qian Trigram relies on the more natural 'Bolang Jin' the fighting/ martial and cultivation practices can be trained and developed at the same time. Where the Kun Trigram would need several years of daily cultivation practices before doing any of it's techniques.
Baguazhang consists of basic, intermediate, and advanced tactics but the practice(s) to achieve these different skills are essentially the same, as Baguazhang's 'Circle Walking'/ Zhuan Zhang (Turning Palms) is both a basic and advanced, lifelong practice. Plus, it also kills two birds with one stone/ one arrow, two eagles (一箭雙鵰) as it's developing the fighting skills and internal cultivation at the same time (when done properly).
Thanks In Advance
.