Muslim tolerance

[yusuf]

semantics and ranting eh... the population dynamics are valid ... the point is still valid

[Chris Fleming]

http://www.instmed.org/imed/apartheid.html

[yusuf]

no, they don;t look like bantustans at all.. no correlation to the apartheid policies of south africa .. none at all

[jonathan.bluestein]

Your biggest mistake here is thinking that "under Israeli control" means that Israelis actually live there. Israelis don't live in 90% of the territories "under Israeli control" in the west bank, and no Israeli currently lives in Gaza. Arabs do live in these "Israeli controlled areas" of the west bank, with few illegal Israeli settlers. The area itself is generally controlled by the military (though with relatively little military presence) because of terrorist activity. There is no apartheid, as vividly demonstrated in the link Chris has put up. We're also talking two different states here! - not two peoples living in the same state. Yes, you can bring the wall issue into discussion, but you better check your numbers on suicide bombings before and after the wall was built. Before - killings every day. After - once a month or so. Call me a Nazi, but I don't mind building a huge wall between myself and another country, if that means my grandma is going to be saved from being blown up in a bus. I bet you would have done the same. And all the while though, with the wall and all, Arabs are saved from poverty and starvation because they can cross over and work in Israel. 10 Palestinians work in a house across the street from me to feed their families - they have been given a permit because they are decent people, who don't have anything to do with terrorism.

[yusuf]

sure Jonathan.. you are building a wall for peace... how novel eh... i'd think you just send your PM to sell enough snake oil to congress and obfuscate till 'facts on the ground' are sufficient to never have a palestinian state..

here's one for you

[quote]South African Archbishop Desmond Tutu has accused Israel of practising apartheid in its policies towards the Palestinians.
The Nobel peace laureate said he was "very deeply distressed" by a visit to the Holy Land, adding that "it reminded me so much of what happened to us black people in South Africa".


The Jewish lobby is powerful - very powerful. Well, so what?

Archbishop Desmond Tutu
In a speech in the United States, carried in the UK's Guardian newspaper, Archbishop Tutu said he saw "the humiliation of the Palestinians at checkpoints and roadblocks, suffering like us when young white police officers prevented us from moving about".

The archbishop, who was a leading opponent of apartheid in South Africa, said Israel would "never get true security and safety through oppressing another people".
/quote]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/1957644.stm


I'll try and find some of his more recent statemnts, but ISraelis in general might want to listen to a Clergyman who saw first hand both situations, and whose whole career has been based on trying to achieve peace.. or just continue as before ...

[Faris]

Greetings,

Perhaps, a new thread? I'm sure an apt thread title will quickly suggest itself.

peace

[jonathan.bluestein]

Yusuf, that's funny. You bring me quotes from a Nobel prize winner for peace? hahahahaha Here are a few other winner of the same prize:

- Yasser Arafat - A terrorist directly responsible to the murder of thousands of Israelis and Arabs.

- Shimon Peres - A great Israeli diplomat. Also responsible for the establishment of Israel's nuclear facilities.

- Barack Obama - A person in control of a nation that invade other nations for oil, who still kept US armies overseas.

Ridiculous prize category. Means nothing. You also have holy man from any religion talking bullshit all over. Fact he's a clergyman means nothing as well. Dedicating your life to religion doesn't give you any common sense, or reasonable judgement beyond that of other people.

Yes, the Jewish lobby is powerful. But Jews don't control the world - at best, they can influence the amount of money delivered to Israel, which is anyhow never delivered as is, but given as options for buying stuff from American companies. So in reality it's giving money to the American business community and supporting it. True, more military firms than other companies.

Who said the wall was intended to make peace? The wall was intended to keep terrorists from entering Israel illegally and blowing my ass off! As I said - people who're honest and hardworking are regularly giving permit to either visit or work in Israel. Terrorists do not get such permits. Without the wall though, it could've been much easier for them to get in. That's what the wall was built for. It's like the Mexican border, except that our "Mexicans" often want to kill us rather than make a living. Is the US an apartheid country because of the Mexican border?

[Dmitri]

A discussion on this type of a topic is not gonna go anywhere good IMO...

Just sayin'...

[yusuf]

Yusuf, that's funny. You bring me quotes from a Nobel prize winner for peace? hahahahaha Here are a few other winner of the same prize:

- Yasser Arafat - A terrorist directly responsible to the murder of thousands of Israelis and Arabs.

- Shimon Peres - A great Israeli diplomat. Also responsible for the establishment of Israel's nuclear facilities.

- Barack Obama - A person in control of a nation that invade other nations for oil, who still kept US armies overseas.

Ridiculous prize category. Means nothing. You also have holy man from any religion talking bullshit all over. Fact he's a clergyman means nothing as well. Dedicating your life to religion doesn't give you any common sense, or reasonable judgement beyond that of other people.

Yes, the Jewish lobby is powerful. But Jews don't control the world - at best, they can influence the amount of money delivered to Israel, which is anyhow never delivered as is, but given as options for buying stuff from American companies. So in reality it's giving money to the American business community and supporting it. True, more military firms than other companies.

Who said the wall was intended to make peace? The wall was intended to keep terrorists from entering Israel illegally and blowing my ass off! As I said - people who're honest and hardworking are regularly giving permit to either visit or work in Israel. Terrorists do not get such permits. Without the wall though, it could've been much easier for them to get in. That's what the wall was built for. It's like the Mexican border, except that our "Mexicans" often want to kill us rather than make a living. Is the US an apartheid country because of the Mexican border?

So the fact you have no clue who he is, and put him in the same category as the terrorist Yasser Araft, sort of highlights the narrow minded ignorance of most Israelis, and undermines your subsequent rant about the wall... Tutu lived under apartheid, fought it and recognises it in Israeli policies in the occupied Palestinian teritories.. only last week there was the embarrasing revelation that Israel had deliberately set up a secret policy to ensure 140,000 Palestinians who had gone abroad to study were stripped of any papers allowing them to return...

Israel has used a covert procedure to cancel the residency status of 140,000 West Bank Palestinians between 1967 and 1994, the legal advisor for the Judea and Samaria Justice Ministry's office admits, in a new document obtained by Haaretz. The document was written after the Center for the Defense of the Individual filed a request under the Freedom of Information Law.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-admits-it-covertly-canceled-residency-status-of-140-000-palestinians-1.360935

forget the wall. that is apartheid...

this thread was originally about muslim tolerance, but your stupid comments about 'true muslims' (imagine if i said 'true jew'), and snide comments about the results of giving democracy to them crrazy egyptians means i fully intend to illustrate your own nations hypocrisy whenever you open your ill informed mouth...

[Chris Fleming]

[jonathan.bluestein]

So the fact you have no clue who he is, and put him in the same category as the terrorist Yasser Araft, sort of highlights the narrow minded ignorance of most Israelis, and undermines your subsequent rant about the wall... Tutu lived under apartheid, fought it and recognises it in Israeli policies in the occupied Palestinian teritories.. only last week there was the embarrasing revelation that Israel had deliberately set up a secret policy to ensure 140,000 Palestinians who had gone abroad to study were stripped of any papers allowing them to return...

Israel has used a covert procedure to cancel the residency status of 140,000 West Bank Palestinians between 1967 and 1994, the legal advisor for the Judea and Samaria Justice Ministry's office admits, in a new document obtained by Haaretz. The document was written after the Center for the Defense of the Individual filed a request under the Freedom of Information Law.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-admits-it-covertly-canceled-residency-status-of-140-000-palestinians-1.360935

forget the wall. that is apartheid...

this thread was originally about muslim tolerance, but your stupid comments about 'true muslims' (imagine if i said 'true jew'), and snide comments about the results of giving democracy to them crrazy egyptians means i fully intend to illustrate your own nations hypocrisy whenever you open your ill informed mouth...

I didn't Tutu in the same category as Arafat - I put Arafat in the same category as Obama and Peres, because all three of them won the same prize. I don't think much of his anti-Israeli agenda.

Did you even read that article you posted? Palestinians were free to return within 6.5 years of departure abroad from the west bank, and were listed as "no longer residents" if they failed to do so. They were told this was going to happen. The solution is found right here: "By contrast, Palestinians who immigrated from the West Bank after the Palestinian Authority was set up retained residency rights even if they did not return for years". Before that, there was no local government there. As I said a few times before in this thread - they were just a bunch of mixed villages and cities, of several tribes which did not originate in Israel. In any case, since there was no local government, and there had to be military rule because of the terrorism (which dates back to the beginning of the last century), there was logic behind keeping things in order. Lots of Palestinians went abroad to receive terrorist and military training in Arab countries. As for the thing going on with east-Jerusalem residents - I don't agree with that.
I wouldn't buy into what that former Major General is saying - he probably just doesn't want the responsibility. There's no way he didn't know.
How can they tell that the population was ought to be 14 percent bigger, if "the number of Palestinians denied return remained classified"? That doesn't make any sense. It's all bull. There aren't that many Palestinians going abroad, Palestinian students, etc. It's a very poor and uneducated population - sad but true.

Reading into that article in HaAretz, other interesting bits of information pop up:

1. There's free press in Israel!
While in Arab countries, including the Palestinian authority, they kill journalists left and right. Here's the journalist situation in Gaza: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY50cktUKbA

2. There's a "freedom of information act" in Israel!
Show me one Arab country that has such a law.

In any case, HaAretz is an extreme left-wing opinionated newspaper. It's a well known fact among Israelis.

Now, how about Islam encouraging lying to non-Muslims for the greater good of Islamic cause?
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/011-taqiyya.htm
How can you rely on anything said by a religious Muslim after having read these words from the Koran or the Hadith?

This is what they teach their children. There are no such TV shows on Israeli TV.








And lets not forget Allah's love of animals:




And the Palestinian's love of each other:

[Chris Fleming]

What does his high exalted holiness Desmond Tutu say about the million Jews (who lived in predominately Arab countries, Egypt, for example) who were forced out of their homes?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exo ... _countries

[Faris]

Greetings,

Very good/bad(?)

Considering the influence of the Zionist lobby a wikipedia article may not be considered an unimpeachable source, by many.

peace

[jonathan.bluestein]

Very good/bad(?)

Considering the influence of the Zionist lobby a wikipedia article may not be considered an unimpeachable source, by many.

peace

First, there isn't a Zionist lobby - only a Jewish lobby in America. Second, how can you measure an influence of a certain "lobby" on a Wikipedia article? I can pick any article you dislike on Wikipedia, and claim that it was changed under the influence of some lobby. You can rarely prove such things.

I'd argue what happens on many Wikipedia entries is the opposite of this. The articles on Hamas and the Palestinians are much more moderate in English than in Hebrew. The Hamas article in English presents the organization as a "political party", which is a funny term for a murderous terrorist organization. Later down the article though, it could not ignore fabulous highlights from Hamas' constitution, such as the following:

"The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews [and kill them]; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: Oh Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!”

Or their great achievements in Humanitarianism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sbarro_piz ... nt_bombing

Here I quote the Palestinian response to this "heroic" act:
"After the suicide bombing, Palestinian university students at the An-Najah University in the West Bank city of Nablus created an exhibition celebrating the one year anniversary of the Second Intifada.[10][11] The exhibit’s main attraction was a room-sized re-enactment of the bombing at Sbarro. The installation featured broken furniture splattered with fake blood and human body parts.[10] The entrance to the exhibition was illustrated with a mural depicting the bombing. "

And the funny thing is, as I said before, that many of these Wikipedia articles are timid in comparison the the ones in Hebrew (which in my opinion better reflect the truth).

[yusuf]

.

Now, how about Islam encouraging lying to non-Muslims for the greater good of Islamic cause?
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/011-taqiyya.htm
How can you rely on anything said by a religious Muslim after having read these words from the Koran or the Hadith?

This is what they teach their children. There are no such TV shows on Israeli TV.

Jonathan your whole point is just ranting..especially this one piece of pure bullshit.. the fact you actually believe this shows what an Islamophobe you are.. the equivalent of an anti-semite.. taqqiya is only a tradition in the SHia branch faith and only used if your life is under threat .. it is not used to advance the cause of Islam, only to save ones own life if it is under threat.. My Jesuit teachers had an equivalent called the Denial of Peter or Mental reservation and is in fact it is the derived directly from the Jewish tradition:

JLaw.com, a website dedicated to expounding Jewish law, declares:
There is no question that Jewish law obligates one to prevaricate in order to save one’s own life or the life of another person.
Rabbi Michael Broyde writes:
It can be clearly demonstrated that lying to save the life of an innocent person is permissible. Thus, this lie becomes legally justifiable to save one’s own life too.
Rabbi Joseph Telushkin writes:
Jewish law condemns as foolish and immoral both telling the truth to an evil person and thereby enabling him to go on doing evil, or telling the truth to an evil person that leads to your [own] murder.
And he says further:
We are permitted to lie, or otherwise deceive, unscrupulous people even if we only suspect that our lives may be in danger. [26]

http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/08/silencing-spencer-taqiyya-and-kitman-are-part-of-judeo-christian-belief/


In every post you pull together random anti Islam crap and spew it together to justify your own position.... you refuse to acknowledge your own bias inteh words and positions you take ..and then you take on board the ideology of modern day fascists... all of this taqqiya and Islam as a threat nonsense comes from the same people who were persecuting Jews over the last century.. you should be ashamed... and I say that as a Muslim and as someone who has Jewish blood and Jewish family...