Muslim tolerance

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Re: Muslim tolerance

Postby mixjourneyman on Thu May 26, 2011 7:02 am

a short piece of creative writing I made this morning. I think it relates well to the situation here. humanity, no matter what side of the argument it represents, will always find a good excuse to kill one another based on immaterial differences. We all have blood on our hands.

philosophy 101: rules

About 2500 years ago there was a major confluence of spiritual ideas around the world. Humanity had developed societies and cultures and for some reason there was a spiritual awakening on a very large scale. The ancients set down laws to be followed as social cohesive measures. Why did they set down these laws? Was it divine right, or was it as a cohesive measure to keep society from disintegrating? People, if not rained in by some basic rules, tend to follow their baser, more animalistic tendencies. These proclivities are fine in the wild, because humans are essentially animals, and there are very good evolutionary reasons to act like a wild animals. However, humans are also imbued with the ability to use deduction and reason to solve problems. this is a skill that most animals do not have. Getting back to rules: the ancients passed down moral codes to control humanity and make sure that society would not disintegrate. Unfortunately, the ancients were not perfect and handed down imperfect sets of rules which promoted systematized violence as a way to control humanity. Not only did the promote violence by man against man, they also claimed that this violence was justified by an omnipresent god who ultimately guided and controlled the fate of man. The ancients doubtless had very good reasons for doing this and in truth, no man can prove or disprove the existence of a god. There may or may not be a god, no man can tell you truly that there is or is not one. That is immaterial though, the salient point is that ever since those first tracts were set down, man has had a justification for the use of violence and fear against his fellow beings. In the beginning, man was in his natural state. He perpetuated violence and chaos, but he had no motive other than his instinct. Life was brutal and quite short, surely not very enjoyable for humanity. However, since then, societies have risen and fallen and man has held on to his drive to destroy, except that he has been made to feel guilt for his natural state. This guilt has caused him to justify systematic murders of countless millions, destruction of the very earth that he needs to sustain him, and the absolute lack of love and compassion for the beings he shares that earth with. Religion as it exists today is truly a curse of curses. The cause of so much suffering. But I believe that man can use religion and the ideas that it sets forth to bring humanity to a much higher place. The ancients also left a great gift in their tracts of rules: they left the idea of absolute unconditional love. They said that the universe, or god, imbued all things with a great love and compassion and that man could ascend to holiness and be part of that love. When people read the words of the ancients, instead of focusing on the pain, suffering, hate, greed, a derisiveness of their words, they should instead focus on the great love, caring, healing, compassion, and peace of their words. Keeping the people covered in blind hate and fear will only promote the destruction of humanity. It would be much better if we showed each other gentleness, caring, and compassion.

Let these be the new words of the ancients and let us hope that in the future, humanity will be more equitable to one another



In peace.
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Re: Muslim tolerance

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Thu May 26, 2011 7:10 am

Mix:

I strongly agree with most of what you've written. I like your writing :) I do know of certain religious branches, even within Judaism and Christianity, who are well-intentioned and truly work towards the greater good of humanity. These are the ones who made a choice to adapt parts of their religion into modern culture. While I am not religious myself, I support these people.
What you wrote of reflects some of the Daoist viewpoints on the matter, though their solution is a form of Anarchism ;D


Yusuf:

I am biased against all religious fundamentalists, and in quite a few of my posts brought about examples of wrongs being done by either Jews or Israelis, not just Arabs and Muslims.

I am certainly not anti-Arab in general, as suggested by the fact I invite Arab construction workers from nearby houses into my home for a drink regularly. Wouldn't compare that to antisemitism.

I think you are ignorant of what I perceive to be the political truth because you are fueled by what you read in the western media. I, on the other hand, live this reality. In addition, I am a student for a B.A. in both Law and Government, and have taken several courses on world and middle-eastern politics. I live alongside the people you only read about. I've been on buses that later exploded. I visited many Palestinian cities and several villages. I've been to Jerusalem many times. I know the situation at first hand.

The examples I bring forth are to show what kind of lying murderous bastards are the leaders of the Palestinians. These people are the new Nazis, just like Iran's president Ahmadinejad. Not all the Arabs share their views, and that's for sure. However, just like the Nazis, Hamas was also democratically elected by the people of Gaza. There is no excuse for electing a party that is a known terrorist organization, whose constitution calls for the murder of all Jews. Right after they got elected, Hamas' soldiers slaughtered hundreds of Fat'h's soldiers, sometimes in mass public executions. The fact that Hamas was democratically elected in Gaza had a profound influence on Israeli politics, since for many Israelis, this was the straw that broke the camel's back. People thought to themselves - how can we make peace with a group of people who elect a government that openly declares it wants to kill us all? It's like demanding the Jews making a peace treaty with Neo-Nazis. Once, most Israelis were inclined to believe that it's only a minority among the Palestinians who are responsible for the horrendous killings. Nowadays, since Hamas was elected by a majority vote, Israelis don't think so any more.
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Re: Muslim tolerance

Postby Doc Stier on Thu May 26, 2011 7:27 am

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Re: Muslim tolerance

Postby yusuf on Thu May 26, 2011 7:56 am

Doc & Jonathan,

Much as I am an advocate for peaceful resolution the seriousness of the lies and falsehoods that have been delivered in this thread must be addressed. No person who is aware of recent history can allow the framework for hatred of an entire religion to take root. The words 'true muslims', and 'all muslims lie to advance their religion' were used a hundred years ago against Jews in Europe. These lies repeated often enough set the ground for horrors which we all swore would never happen again. The website Jonathan quoted is associated with SIOA and others, hate groups whose members have openly called for removal of muslims from western countries, by force if necessary and the 'eradication of the Islamic cancer' on the world.

People who repeat and spread these lies must be held to account. No moral bullshit about appeasement, there can be no appeasement of people who push this fascist agenda.

yusuf

edited to add: or any fascist agenda.. i am in favour of destroying hamas and the Saudi fundmentalist network
Last edited by yusuf on Thu May 26, 2011 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Muslim tolerance

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Thu May 26, 2011 8:25 am

yusuf wrote:Doc & Jonathan,

Much as I am an advocate for peaceful resolution the seriousness of the lies and falsehoods that have been delivered in this thread must be addressed. No person who is aware of recent history can allow the framework for hatred of an entire religion to take root. The words 'true muslims', and 'all muslims lie to advance their religion' were used a hundred years ago against Jews in Europe. These lies repeated often enough set the ground for horrors which we all swore would never happen again. The website Jonathan quoted is associated with SIOA and others, hate groups whose members have openly called for removal of muslims from western countries, by force if necessary and the 'eradication of the Islamic cancer' on the world.

People who repeat and spread these lies must be held to account. No moral bullshit about appeasement, there can be no appeasement of people who push this fascist agenda.

yusuf

edited to add: or any fascist agenda.. i am in favour of destroying hamas and the Saudi fundmentalist network


Wasn't familiar with the website I have myself posted. Sorry if it belonged to some really bad people. I certainly don't support an "eradication of Islam". I was looking for material on the Taqiyya. Found that link, and that certain page seemed to reflect what I know. Didn't read through the rest of that website.

I am not claiming "all Muslim are liars". That is not true. However, too many people preaching Islam use the Taqiyya for the purposes of claiming that lying is OK for the Islamic (and anti-Israeli) cause.

I personally think that the Saudis are the worst thing the Arabs can ask for. They helped make the west Dependant on oil, and thus helped cause quite a few wars in which countless Arabs were killed. They promote the Sharia law, which is anti-Democratic all-over. They are a monarchic regime, and oppose basic human rights. They are the some of the main contributers to global warming... Pretty evil bunch, the people leading the Saudi nation.
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Re: Muslim tolerance

Postby yusuf on Thu May 26, 2011 8:46 am

jonathan.bluestein wrote:I am not claiming "all Muslim are liars". That is not true. However, too many people preaching Islam use the Taqiyya for the purposes of claiming that lying is OK for the Islamic (and anti-Israeli) cause.



not true at all... in my years of travelling / living all over the middle east, including Israel, I haven't heard more than two people discuss Taqqiya, and even they were slapped down. The very word has only entered the conversation with the need to create a muslim enemy. You are trying to create a justification for Israeli actions by equating 'Palestinian resistance to occupation' with Muslims, and then with Taqqiya. Its false and wrong.

I personally think that the Saudis are the worst thing the Arabs can ask for. They helped make the west Dependant on oil, and thus helped cause quite a few wars in which countless Arabs were killed. They promote the Sharia law, which is anti-Democratic all-over. They are a monarchic regime, and oppose basic human rights. They are the some of the main contributers to global warming... Pretty evil bunch, the people leading the Saudi nation.


agreed.... and the 20,000 or rich Gulf Arabs who are supporting the war against anyone who doesn't agree with them. There have thousands more people killed by these animals in Pakistan, Afghanistan, India than in Israel, Believe me when I say that ordinary Muslims will get to these people one day.
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Re: Muslim tolerance

Postby Faris on Thu May 26, 2011 10:40 am

Greetings,

jonathan.bluestein wrote:I personally think that the Saudis are the worst thing the Arabs can ask for. They helped make the west Dependant on oil, and thus helped cause quite a few wars in which countless Arabs were killed. They promote the Sharia law, which is anti-Democratic all-over. They are a monarchic regime, and oppose basic human rights. They are the some of the main contributers to global warming... Pretty evil bunch, the people leading the Saudi nation.


You are kidding me; aren't you?

I personally think that the Saudis are the worst thing the Arabs can ask for. They helped make the west Dependant on oil, and thus helped cause quite a few wars in which countless Arabs were killed.


I have never heard this hypothesis before now. Could you please elaborate as to how the Sa`udis "helped make the West dependant on oil...?"

They promote the Sharia law, which is anti-Democratic all-over.


Are soveriegn nations not allowed to choose which legal/political system they follow? Is not 'hating' someone for being "anti-democratic" undemocratic and illiberal?

They are a monarchic regime..
:o

No doubt, the Sauds have many heinous crimes to answer for but these are not them. And we should not forget that the Sauds have always been agents of 'the West' in the region.

peace
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Re: Muslim tolerance

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Fri May 27, 2011 3:33 am

Umar, I certainly wasn't joking about the Saudis. I meant and believe every word I wrote. You can see that even Yusuf agreed on these issues. The way the Saudis made the west dependent on oil is akin to how a drug dealer makes you dependent on drugs - you push your product hard, up to a point when the buyer can't get along without it. They went further than that, though. They have taken over very large parts of the US economy, so messing with them would mean harming American business interests. You may say that Jews also hold a large part of the US economy. That is true. However, they are Americans, and see themselves as Americans before their Jewish identity. The Saudis are from a foreign country. Thus, US interests abroad are being greatly influenced by the demands of Saudi Arabia - not because the US would like to support that country, but because it is dependent on it for the time being. In contrast, Israel represents a US ideological bay in the mid-east. Meaning, Israel stands to promote the true US agenda, of spreading Democracy and its way of life to other countries. You can see it from an angle of either Political Realism or Political Liberalism. It doesn't matter. The Americans actually support both these political philosophies to a degree. This is not just Academic mumbo-jumbo. Condoleezza Rice is professor of political science. There are many like her in American governments that work on implementing ideas from these academic theories into US foreign policy. Bush spread democracy by killing people, and also gained some nice oil profits in the process. Obama saw that he himself was not capable of killing everyone and bringing about democracy at the same time, so he turned to another, wiser solution - causing the Arabs to kill each-other and hope they bring about democracy by themselves, which will save American lives, and hopefully lower the hare towards America. Had the Americans been capable to take the financial risk, they would have done the same (either the Bush or Obama way) to the Saudis.
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Re: Muslim tolerance

Postby yusuf on Sat May 28, 2011 4:38 am

jewish and muslim students uniting to oppose the radicals who often produce anti muslim bullshit .. that is more like what is needed

http://www.islamophobiatoday.com/2011/05/27/jewish-and-muslim-students-unite-to-debunk-horowitz%E2%80%99s-claims/
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Re: Muslim tolerance

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Sat May 28, 2011 10:16 am

yusuf wrote:jewish and muslim students uniting to oppose the radicals who often produce anti muslim bullshit .. that is more like what is needed

http://www.islamophobiatoday.com/2011/05/27/jewish-and-muslim-students-unite-to-debunk-horowitz%E2%80%99s-claims/


Nice going. It's easier when living in such conditions though, without having direct relation to the politics. Here we have one side whose family member serves as a soldier, the other with his cousin having been shot by rubber bullets by the same soldier after having thrown rocks at him... Just one example out of many as to why people here are having a harder time bridging the gaps.
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Re: Muslim tolerance

Postby yusuf on Sun May 29, 2011 3:56 am

this why it's more important for people in difficult political situations to vocalise reconciliation more than throwing false and dangerous accusations

http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/05/awfully-dark-before-the-dawn/
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Re: Muslim tolerance

Postby ShortFormMike on Sun May 29, 2011 2:54 pm

johnathan,
when israel does the same shit as hamas: killing innocent civilians, kidnapping, assassinations etc do you consider that to be "nazi" behavior as you call it?

have you ever listened to the testimony from the first soldiers on the ground in the last "war" with lebanon? it is just pathetic how blood thirsty israel is. there was virtually no resistance but they went around launching tank shells into apartment buildings, dropping white phosphorous, obliterating civilian infrastructure.

(a lot of zionists are just running too wild in the US. alan dershowitz said that enough people in lebanon were combatants that you can essentially consider the civilians fair game. i'm really not exaggerating what he said at all. then anyone who calls him out on it is an anti-Semite. if he saw my last name he couldn't call me that but that's just a double standard.)
if it doesn't make sense, it's because I'm "typing" with Swype or using android's voice to text, which is pretty damn good by the way
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Re: Muslim tolerance

Postby Doc Stier on Mon May 30, 2011 1:22 pm

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Re: Muslim tolerance

Postby Doc Stier on Mon May 30, 2011 1:44 pm

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Re: Muslim tolerance

Postby yusuf on Tue May 31, 2011 4:39 am

Doc..you keep posting these things indiscriminately..... how many muslims on this board appear and start attacking other faiths.. i think there may be half a dozen of us on here.. to my recollection i don;t think anyone has ever said 'all jews are liars', 'christians prefer death to life'. ' hindus value death over their own childresns lives'

..and yet we have people sayign that about muslims in every thread ... doesn;t that disgust you.. rather than just pitch in and post random images perhaps you might consider who is saying what, and whether your images should reflect that ...
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