the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Sometimes when I am reading posts here and there I wonder - are Americans so gullible? In the past two weeks there have been posts by people from my own country announcing the arrival of such-and-such Grandmaster on the scene, ready to take students. One of them has even created a new system, of which he is the Grandmaster, along with a Daoist sounding name!

Is this how Chinese martial arts must be marketed in the West? Does not skill in the art and teaching count?

This in no way implies anything about the skills of the teachers - I do not know them, and they may very well have good skills - but to call oneself Grandmaster, and put on such airs, would be absurd in China.

In China we never hear this term "Grandmaster". I always thought it was a Western concept, as in Western Chess (Bobby Fisher and Boris Spasky were Grandmasters according to the ranking systems of international Chess - the title had some actual meaning, like "Heavyweight Champion").

In China we call teachers "Laoshi" or "Jiaotou" or even just "Xiansheng ("mister")" , especially if we are not students of them. If we or are teacher are very old fashioned we might call them "Shifu" out of respect - but that implies a certain relationship. There is no term like Grandmaster in China - our teachers teacher is our Grandteacher, but that is a relationship within a school or group, not a title. The same is true of the term "Zhangmenren" - this is the head of a school or (by agreement with others within the system) the person who has authority to represent the system to the public. It does not follow that this person is the most highly skilled in the system - usually he is the most educated or most personable. Perhaps the closest to the term Grandmaster the way Americans seem to use it is "chuanren", which means someone who has (again, by agreement or designation) authority to teach the system.

I would implore these teachers (and their students) to re-examine their motives in using such titles - it does not reflect well on them, and in turn it makes CMA look silly as well.

(Many thanks to Ms. Rose Selavy for translation help)

Grandmaster Schumacher will be driving for Mercedes GP again this year. I wish him well.

It is said, when the customer student is ready, the master will appear.

c_xlong,

For the most part every one on this forum agrees with you and we just had a long thread that discussed this very topic: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11109&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=shifu&start=60

Hope that helps.


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This sort of BS goes back at least to the 1960s, and there's nothing that can be done about it. God wouldn't have made sheep if he hadn't wanted them sheared.

Hard enough to find a TRUE MASTER.

Hard to find a true master? Yes.

But look on the bright side: There are grandmasters a-plenty!

As a native Taiwanese CMAist, I can tell you that the situation is not much better around here either. At this day and age, basically anybody who is good at marketing can potentially become a grandmaster, regardless of levels of MA skill.

c_xlong wrote:This in no way implies anything about the skills of the teachers - I do not know them, and they may very well have good skills - but to call oneself Grandmaster, and put on such airs, would be absurd in China.

I am afraid China is just the same, if not worse.
I have been introduced to A LOT of "grandmasters' 大師 in China, some of which also kindly gave me their business card with that title on it ...

YM

Thanks God, nowadays in China there is the "duan system", which help us to know the level of the actual teacher...
In the summer, I had the privilege to crossed hands with a grandmaster who holds the 7th duan. Cause I did know how high he was in this ranking system, I didn't put him to the ground in a "san tui" play...
So titles are very, very important things in MA!

Örs

I've always said "as soon as the chinese man gets off the plane and buys a yellow pages advertisement he can call himself a master since there's no longer anyone around to dispute their claims"....

This is just like Tai-kwon-do where a Korean with a second degree black belt can fly to America and get off the plane with a sixth degree bb.

There really is only one.....Grandmaster

I think it is the "grandmasters" who are gullible these days. lol

yes, there will always be a faction of the people who want to think they are special and badass and there is an even smaller portion of people who actually are special and badass.

Traditional Chinese Martial Arts in context to fighting have only a few paths to take.
1. Shuai Jiao and San Shou - sport (these 2 have all kick/punch/lock/throw)
2. qi gong - health
3. kuen/forms - performance and training

The time of secrets is gone, invulnerability techniques are laughable and many of those who claimed longevity...died at relatively early ages. A record of producing adept fighters does not exist for Kung Fu or Chinese Martial arts in the west. In fact, it's very hard to find traditional martial artists who fight on the circuit of pro venues who train in a traditional way anymore at all. In fact...you probably won't find any.

People do not believe in the tai chi will make me live to 150 or kung fu will turn you into a piece of iron that cannot be hurt and if you do right no can defend sort of nonsense. That's gone, it went away after about UFC 10 or so when people staretd looking at traditional arts in a very different light.

when mma finally came to a point where it was a blend of kick/punch/lock and throw from other arts! Muay Thai and Boxing for standup, judo and ju jitsu for ground and throwing.

Chinese martial arts could have capitalized on this...but no. lol And why not? I don't know. I suspect it's because as soon as there is one recognized body for something, everyone who missed out starts to take pot shots at it and in the end, the whole shebang collapses. That's why Kung Fu organizations cannot get their shit together. They all think they're better than the other guy and so none of them are fielding genuine champions in sport or anywhere else.

the face game will foil the chinese martial arts every time until it is done away with and people learn to eat a little crow when they are wrong, apologize for errors and to not get wrapped up in silly illusory titles and positions.