Re: Tim Cartmell's Standing Grappling, Escapes & Counters DVD

[Doc Stier]

Growing up in the USA, most guys interested in athletic competition play team sports like football, basketball, and baseball while in school, but rarely continue to do so after high school or college. The vast majority never take any instruction in boxing or martial arts of any kind, and never wrestle competitively.

As a result, street fighting or tavern brawling generally involves a haphazard combination of tough talk followed by pushing and shoving, wild roundhouse punches, and grappling, which usually ends up on the ground. Without any real defensive skills to speak of, and with little or no striking, kicking, grappling or throwing skills, untrained attempts to instinctively wrestle the opponent is all there is.

As such, victory often goes to whoever is the most aggressive, to whoever has a significant size, strength or speed advantage, and/or to whoever happens to be lucky enough to face someone even less competent than himself as a fighter on this particular occasion.

[yusuf]

As usual, 2/3 or so of the posters are responding to just keywords in the responses rather than to actual comments being presented.

+1 - as demonstrated above Touchy aren't we

Shooters comments just made me look at a the stuff more closely to see what he mean't.. i agree but i see enough in the clip to consider buying the dvd.. the only thing thats put me off is the vitriol from Tim's students...I'm sure these guys don't give a rats arse about my opinion as a forumite or even my existence, but they should as I am also a potential customer...

the dvd seems to have many positive merits, the only thing stopping me buying it is the thought that my hard earned money will be going to support a teacher that has these people as his representatives...

[Andy_S]

Learning to fight on mats and wearing gi makes perfect sense, as you are far, far, far more likely to be attacked and have to defend yourself in your martial arts class - where sparring is part of the training - than on da streetz where you may never need to use the skills you have learned.

Adaption is part of human behaviour. In the broad scheme of things, I think it is far more important to learn combative skills and reach a point where you can apply them comfortably (eg on mats, in gi) than to prioritize "environmental training" over foundation skill building and application.

[RobP2]

the dvd seems to have many positive merits, the only thing stopping me buying it is the thought that my hard earned money will be going to support a teacher that has these people as his representatives...

Well every teacher has them. The other day I read a some very cringy posts from an apparent systema guy on MAP. Mind you, it's often the case that such people don't train with their hero's as much as the quiet ones

[JAB]

Yusuf
You are right about one thing... no one gives a rats ass!

If you were really interested you would have bought it already. You are just talking smack thinking you are more clever then you are!
JAB

[GrahamB]

Whenever you are upset about an event, a person, or a situation, the real cause is not the event, person, or situation but a loss of true perspective that only space can provide. You are trapped in object consciousness, unaware of the timeless inner space of consciousness itself.

The words This, too, will pass when used as a pointer can restore awareness of that dimension to you.

[BruceP]

Learning to fight on mats and wearing gi makes perfect sense, as you are far, far, far more likely to be attacked and have to defend yourself in your martial arts class - where sparring is part of the training - than on da streetz where you may never need to use the skills you have learned.

Adaption is part of human behaviour. In the broad scheme of things, I think it is far more important to learn combative skills and reach a point where you can apply them comfortably (eg on mats, in gi) than to prioritize "environmental training" over foundation skill building and application.

There is no better way to test the learning than sport fighting. There's no better way to train for sport fighting than in the training hall, on mats, with padded fists and other body parts. There's no better way to develop good basics for real fighting than to continue with what you're doing for sport. There's no better way to develop awareness to environment and terrain - and the limitations terrain dictates in terms of tactical repertoire and measured repsonse - than to train on varying terrains that impose their own special sets of limitations.

In executing good technique, quick and fairly precise foot placement are key components in most throws. You can chase the split with your penetrating leg all day on most oudoor surfaces and you'll be fine. Placing the feet to turn and lift for say, hip throw, is where trouble can occur if you're working off of loose gravel, snow, grass, etc, and depending on your footwear. I've found probabilities of cleanly throwing the attacker or remaining on your feet while grappling/clinching with the attacker to be about 50/50 once the training goes oudoors. Even indoors on wet surfaces or with certain footwear. You have to measure your own explosive footwork and overall movement even if the opp is moving explosively - which they most often do when they play the role of committed attacker. There are other factors that come into play that raise much more important questions than how to maintain the ability to execute certain techniques.

But you know what, Andy? The Cartmellites (or is it cartmel-lites?) don't even see what's being said and don't care to know. They still think people are criticising Tim. Logic and reason have gone fishing.

It's telling when someone labels others as "drooling morons" for suggesting that material should be trained outdoors. They obviously have no experience to speak from and have no clue how to even structure that sort of training so that it can be done safely while retaining a good measure of realism.

[yusuf]

Yusuf
You are right about one thing... no one gives a rats ass!

If you were really interested you would have bought it already. You are just talking smack thinking you are more clever then you are!
JAB

thanks, it is true that i think i am cleverer than i am... and you illustrated my point quite nicely ..

edited to add.. given i've bought his other books and dvds i think you guys have persuaded me to dump them and not send any more cash his way... well played..

[kshurika]

yusuf wrote:

Shooters comments just made me look at a the stuff more closely to see what he mean't.. i agree but i see enough in the clip to consider buying the dvd.. the only thing thats put me off is the vitriol from Tim's students...I'm sure these guys don't give a rats arse about my opinion as a forumite or even my existence, but they should as I am also a potential customer...

the dvd seems to have many positive merits, the only thing stopping me buying it is the thought that my hard earned money will be going to support a teacher that has these people as his representatives...

And, previously, I wrote:

I happen to study with the guy, but it seems that on RSF, the only noted martial arts teacher whose mention immediately starts this "he doesn't teach the real stuff" bullshit is Tim Cartmell. Just bring up the "Xing Yi Nei Gong" book and it's off to the races! And, it's always the same names chiming in - many of whom haven't even stood on the same continent with Tim. Some of them even think that taiji is a martial art, for God's sake! Why don't you just take a break from your grindingly boring jobs, come out to Orange County, challenge Tim and see how realistic he is (or isn't)? In that way, you could quit your pussyish whining that always comes up in these discussions, usually involving a variation of "Tim's guys are rude and don't like it when others express their views ". Here's my view: There's a nice asphalt parking lot in front of Ace Jiu-jitsu. Go out there with Tim, attack him, and report here your findings, after your reconstructive surgery, physical therapy and cognitive rehabilitation have been completed.

Kudos to yusuf and his "reality of da streets" playmates for proving my thesis. As I stated above, it is always the case on RSF that in any thread involving Tim Cartmell, the same group of badass Brits - and others - comes in to question whether or not Tim has the stuff. Yusuf even got his little feelings hurt so badly he's going home to his stuffed animals and won't buy Tim's DVD. (Cheer up yusuf, I'm sending you some "Thomas and Friends" videos to take its place.) Yusuf, Shooter, RobP2 - I don't pretend to speak for Jake, Shane and strawdog, but we're very concerned that you might not like us. On the other hand, we find it amusing that such fans of reality street fighting question Tim's street cred without ever having even spent five minutes in a room with the man. You think his vids should be shot on cracked, piss-stained concrete with a ghetto hip-hop soundtrack? I repeat my invitation to you all. Come to SoCal. You can be the demo models, while Tim's vitriolic students stand off-camera laughing. The burgers are cheaper and better, the weather is much better and the women are beyond compare (they still have teeth). Sip a margarita with one by the ocean (post-hospital) and it'll be tough going back to your bedsitter in Paddington. Everyone gets a free Togo's sandwich from me and a closeup tour of Ace Jiu-jitsu's parking lot.

Or, you could stay right where you are, wait for the next Cartmell thread and - once again - type in your pussyish, whining comments (see yusuf above, or anything, anywhere by shooter). Some of us get to train regularly with Mr. Cartmell. Our vitriolic behavior on RSF is merely a hobby.

[JAB]

Dump away Yusuf. If you listen carefully you will hear my tears drop on the keyboard 1/2 a world away

Well put K!

[neijia_boxer]

Looks like a cool vid worth ordering.

[RobP2]

yusuf wrote:
As I stated above, it is always the case on RSF that in any thread involving Tim Cartmell, the same group of badass Brits - and others - comes in to question whether or not Tim has the stuff. Yusuf even got his little feelings hurt so badly he's going home to his stuffed animals and won't buy Tim's DVD. (Cheer up yusuf, I'm sending you some "Thomas and Friends" videos to take its place.) Yusuf, Shooter, RobP2 - I don't pretend to speak for Jake, Shane and strawdog, but we're very concerned that you might not like us. On the other hand, we find it amusing that such fans of reality street fighting question Tim's street cred without ever having even spent five minutes in a room with the man.

Quote one example of me questioning Tim's ability - here's a hint, there isn't one. All you've done is prove the actual point I did make about some people happily laying into other people's video clips (without, shock horror, ever having trained first hand with the people) then getting all pissy when someone dares to question the slightest thing about their own hero-teacher. Straw man arguments abound, personal insults are flung about and people's experience is disparaged or ignored

How old are you? Seriously, how old are you? If I were Tim I wouldn't want you promoting me in this way

[kshurika]

How old are you? Seriously, how old are you? If I were Tim I wouldn't want you promoting me in this way

I'm 13, and if you don't stop saying mean things about me, I'm gonna tell my Dad.



You sound a little bent out of shape there, Rob. Have you tried yoga? I know a good teacher.

[RobP2]

I'm 13, and if you don't stop saying mean things about me, I'm gonna tell my Dad.

You sound a little bent out of shape there, Rob. Have you tried yoga? I know a good teacher.

In terms of emotional intelligence you probably are. It's more boring and sad than annyoing

[BruceP]

On the other hand, we find it amusing that such fans of reality street fighting question Tim's street cred without ever having even spent five minutes in a room with the man

Nobody has questioned Tim's 'Street cred' anywhere in this thread. Show us a single remark made any one of us. Just one? You and the other cartmellites are the only ones making disparaging remarks about others...really, it's true...read the thread again. I did and it really does speak volumes. Wow

Stop projecting with crap like this

You think his vids should be shot on cracked, piss-stained concrete with a ghetto hip-hop soundtrack?

It's too predictable and really kinda sad. People trying have a civil discussion about real, workable ideas and you're making logical leaps that offer nothing of value whatsoever. A tennis court or soccer field are good places to start exploring any material you want to train for 'self defense'.

The only reason I'm spending any time addressing your inane comments is so others reading it can take the ideas I'm sharing here and actually do their own research and development. Threads like this get lots of views and anyone with half a brain is going to see the value some of us have contributed to this discussion...damage control and all that because the op is well beyond the PoNR.