Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

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Re: Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

Postby JessOBrien on Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:17 am

Q and Richard- Plum Pub stocks a lot of Chinese martial arts books, including many from the Lion Books list.

https://www.plumpub.com/sales/lion_books.htm
http://www.lionbooks.com.tw/

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Re: Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

Postby CarstenM on Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:05 pm

JessOBrien wrote:Hi Carsten, yes there are a few. I had a weekly class in Berkeley for the last 10 years teaching the Ba Gua and Xing Yi of this system. It was fun teaching but I've closed public classes at this point. Isaac Kamins teaches in SF. Jamie Dibden in England and Germany. Frank Allen in NYC. Lee Burkins in Colorado. Olaf Rolving in Germany.


Thank you very much, will look them up!

Another question, comming back to the original topic, what do you think of the I Chuan Dvds? Kumar says the Dvds teach how to build martial power. Are these the true martial arts I Chuan sets (Kumar taught in the 80s) or is this health stuff?

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Re: Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

Postby JessOBrien on Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:56 pm

Hi Carston,

The DVDS are taken from some classes we had him teaching here in Berkeley. It was a good class, but I'm not entirely sure a video is that useful for learning it. The postures were ones from the I Chuan tradition, but just about anybody who does standing chi gung would do similar ones. To me the standing has been a big help for martial arts and helped me get more stable, get more grounded and strike with a unified body. There's also a mental side of it because you go through so many thoughts and feelings if you stand for a long time and it really taxes your attention and focus.
Is it chi gung or martial arts? For Kumar's system, all the chi gung training is used to help with martial arts. For instance the swings in his Energy Gates book are good for loosening up your body and waist, but are also great for slapping people upside the head. Each of the sets has a slightly different focus, and can give you a small edge.

Have a good one,
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Re: Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

Postby Trick on Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:15 pm

JessOBrien wrote:Hi Trick,
When I talked to Kumar about his I Chuan training, he mentioned Kenichi Sawai in Japan and Han Xing Yuan in Hong Kong. He studied with them during the 1970's primarily, as I recall. His Wu style Tai Chi comes from his teacher in Beijing, Liu, during the 1980's. He always speaks highly of the standing training in I Chuan, and their willingness to test their martial arts in fighting.

Hi JessOBrien, thanks for the info. yes i could not really imagine he learned Yiquan in Beijing back then. i know there where a couple of europeans studying with Kenichi Sawai back then(ive studied with some of them) but didn know that Sawai also had an American student, but of course he could have had that, why not, and BKF seem to have been a fighty guy back then so he would have fitted in...About Han Xingyuan in HK i know nothing about.
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Re: Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

Postby edededed on Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:15 am

xingyijesse wrote:To the guy talking about how Liu's Palm looked a bit different, I may have not explained it right. It was literally the same Palm taught by Di Guoyang in Beijing and it's specifically NOT Cheng style. It is the 7th Palm change from Liang style and I think you brought up a good point the BK doesn't teach it, he teaches really strange Palm changes that aren't similar to any other style. Bagua isn't a huge community and all of the styles show where they came from, look at Gao palms vs Cheng palms. Different lineage but clear similarities are there. It's kinda obvious that he didn't know what he was looking at and mis-identified it, especially considering he never learned that and has never taught it to students. You can't really believe that his lineage has one random palm that's exactly the same as a totally different style but the rest of the palms are completely unique. Right????


I guess that guy is me. Many of the simpler bagua palms have analogues across the different styles, so it means little; however, if Liu demonstrated a palm very similar to one of Liang style's complex lianhuanzhang palms, that would be significant. (Also, I know Liang style very well.)
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Re: Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

Postby edededed on Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:18 am

JessOBrien wrote:In terms of Ed's comments:
Kumar said that Liu told him the he had bowed to Cheng Youlong in person. He then trained at the South Gate Bagua school for 2-3 years in the 1920's in Beijing. He met with and learned from a lot of different people there, including both Cheng and Yin Fu lineage, as well as the famous Ma Gui, which at the time weren't considered to be different schools. I assume he also met Liu Zhenlin there.
The first 3 palms taught are obviously Cheng Ting Hua style palms as they look generally the same as any other Cheng school. The other palms are unique from what I have seen, but share all the same Bagua elements as any other style.


Thanks Jess - I've only seen a couple of palms from your system, but they did look quite different from other Cheng schools. Also quite soft in execution (at least in appearance).
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Re: Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

Postby xingyijesse on Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:48 am

Edededed, sorry about that, was in a hurry and didn't remember how to spell your name. Lol But yes, if you look up the vid of Liu from YouTube and find the vid of Di doing the 7th change, it's almost EXACT. The vid of Di Laoshi wearing the white practice clothes on the indoor basketball court with the backdrop is the version that I'm thinking of. That's also not just me saying it, Di's student Byron had never seen the clip before of Liu and when he did, it took 3 seconds for him to say "That's our palm change". It's so close that it really appears that it came from Di's family style, not even a different branch of Liang. To Jess, nice to catch up with you as well but I don't dig the insinuation that we're somehow obsessed that you made. It's not obsessed to point out a untruth, that's kind of an AOC type thing to say. "You criticize because you can't stop thinking about me" instead of "Here's something that's being promoted and it's harmful, so people have the right to criticize". If you want to debate my points, that's fair but I really don't want to engage if you're going to make it personal.
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Re: Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

Postby edededed on Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:13 pm

xingyijesse wrote:Edededed, sorry about that, was in a hurry and didn't remember how to spell your name. Lol But yes, if you look up the vid of Liu from YouTube and find the vid of Di doing the 7th change, it's almost EXACT. The vid of Di Laoshi wearing the white practice clothes on the indoor basketball court with the backdrop is the version that I'm thinking of. That's also not just me saying it, Di's student Byron had never seen the clip before of Liu and when he did, it took 3 seconds for him to say "That's our palm change". It's so close that it really appears that it came from Di's family style, not even a different branch of Liang. To Jess, nice to catch up with you as well but I don't dig the insinuation that we're somehow obsessed that you made. It's not obsessed to point out a untruth, that's kind of an AOC type thing to say. "You criticize because you can't stop thinking about me" instead of "Here's something that's being promoted and it's harmful, so people have the right to criticize". If you want to debate my points, that's fair but I really don't want to engage if you're going to make it personal.


Hi Jesse,

Again, I don't think that the similarity in this case is that significant, because this palm change is fairly simple and the movement is shared by many bagua branches. In particular, this palm change looks similar to the common "tea cups" exercise practiced in many bagua branches, but with stepping. (Anyway, there are some differences - Liang style adds piercing palm at the end, etc.)
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Re: Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

Postby xingyijesse on Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:02 pm

Ok man. I can't convince you of anything but it's very hard to believe that that's a common looking palm change. Same stepping pattern and super similar arm movements as a very unique, established style but if that's not enough, I won't drive either of us crazy trying to prove it. You've seen similar changes in the past?
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Re: Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

Postby Formosa Neijia on Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:25 pm

JessOBrien wrote:Q- the Yizong book in question must be this one:
Image
It's in Chinese so I can't read it but from what I understand it's got a few chapters about Kumar that are quite unflattering!
The politics of the old Tang Shou Tao school in 1970's Taiwan is not something I'm at liberty to discuss, but suffice to say, Kumar wasn't especially well liked by the sons of teacher Hong Yi Xiang.


Here is the book: https://www.books.com.tw/products/0010715392

Putting this through Google translate shows some interesting things. First of all, there are four chapters and 43 pages devoted just to Kumar. And he's mentioned in the blurb along.

(bad Google Chinese translation)
For me, these characters, regardless of the intention to use the power of the underworld, strive for the black snake in the upper reaches, the spy killer in the mountains and his witty old friends, the American soldiers who went to the foreign land to fight the Vietnam War, and the United States who assisted Taiwan’s training intelligence personnel. CIA official Robert Smith, Mr. C, who betrayed the students for the sake of self-interest, and the aggressive Western Kumar... they all share the tragic and lacking in the way they think is the best.
(please note: Google translates Kumar as "Kudu" so I changed that. Who knows how Google comes up with this stuff?)

This is attributed to Hong's son but i heard somewhere that one of the gentleman in the forwards had quite a significant input into this project and I met him once, he was as sharp as a razor and was there personally for some of this. So if they wanted to come out with an English version, I don't think it would he hard to do.

In any case, I'm really glad this book was written and I hope we see more like it.
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Re: Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

Postby JessOBrien on Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:49 am

Xingyijesse, You made it personal when you went on Facebook talking all kinds of shit about my friend and mentor Fred Gordon. With that you took it outside the realm of martial arts critique into personal attacks, on a Vietnam vet who is dead now, no less. If you do wish to take your obsession with Kumar's system and students further, please let me know off line and I'd be happy to help you find the answers you want so badly.

As for the 7th palm change in Kumar's system, it contains movements that are common to all Bagua styles. That's true of all the other palms in the system as well.

And finally, I'm sure we'd all look forward to more info about Taiwan martial arts training in the 1970's. Those were a golden age for Chinese martial arts, and with the elder practitioners passing away at a disturbing rate, any recollections they have are as good as gold.
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Re: Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

Postby grzegorz on Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:22 pm

I am saddened to hear that Fred Gordon passed.

Good man, salt of the Earth kind of guy.

Always willing to help people and always wore his heart on his sleeve.

He will be missed.
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Re: Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

Postby xingyijesse on Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:39 pm

Jess, I never said anything rude about Fred, I trained with him as well. He was a good guy that followed obviously bad advice and it cost him his life. I blame Kumar for that and it's totally fair, since he was the source if the bad info. You can keep all your spite to yourself, though, I'm not saying anything but the truth and I'm also not the only one. Liars and frauds should be called out and Bruce's book are full of lies. All his claims about Liu have fallen apart entirely. His claims that Qi magic cures cancer cost a man I respected his life and Fred told me straight up that Bruce gave him Qigong to fight the cancer. It seems really wild to me that none of Bruce's people dare confront the straight forward claims being made head on, there's always some verbal sleight of hand with "he taught he a few good things" after YEARS of training. You overlook the death of a man we both agree was a good, decent human being and try to blame me of all people for your anger, instead of the guy who gave the bad advice. I think it's really telling that you guys approach it that way. You can't defend the insanity spewing out of BK's mouth so you just get personal against people who point out the insanity. Keep your anger to yourself and ask why you get so angry if your confidence in Bruce is really so solid.
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Re: Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

Postby JessOBrien on Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:05 pm

Jesse, I spent a lot of time with Fred Gordon. He, nor Kumar, never claimed that his chi gung would guarantee a cure for cancer. It was part of Fred's daily practice and he credited it with extending his life far beyond what his doctor told him it would be. For you to claim to speak for him and say otherwise is a slap in the face to his memory.

If you want to try and push some narrative about Kumar with your obsessive posts be my guest. I don't claim to represent his system or to defend him. He can do that himself. Since I've trained with him, I offer first hand info about what he said to those who ask. That's all I've ever done and will ever do.

I don't have any anger toward you. I think it's despicable that you make up lies about a friend of mine who happens to be dead and can't defend himself. It disgusts me, but if you are concerned about my feelings, please don't bother.

To repeat, I don't speak for Kumar. I don't speak for his school. There is no "you guys". There is just my opinion based on my experiences training with him. I don't need any "confidence" in BKF. It's not about belief, it's about experience. If you are so interested in the guy go ask him your questions first hand. It's as simple as picking up a phone and giving him a call. Sneaking around the internet talking shit about the guy isn't really going to get you the answers you seek. That's beneath someone like yourself who stands up for morals and martial virtue.
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Re: Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

Postby xingyijesse on Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:39 pm

Man, you mis-characterized every claim you made about me and I think it's intentional. I never insulted Fred, I've never said anything but positive things about my time with him. It's fair to point out that the quack advice he was given led to his death, though. I also don't think it's enough that he got a few good years when he could still be alive. I also never said I spoke for Fred, I recounted what I was told and I still have clear memories from then. I'm also not obsessed, I've posted in 2 places about this and what I've said is true. Again, since you won't address it, BK lied in his books. Flat out lied. Pointing that out isn't being "obsessed", that's just a really weak attempt at psychoanalysis on your part. Are people who point out Trump's lies "obsessed" with him? Nope, they are pointing out lies. I'm also not "sneaking" around, I'm super public about this when I have said it. You are also kind of speaking for his school in that you couldn't address the claims made here without straight up making things up and trying to put words in my mouth. Address the points brought up and if you can't, leave it there, otherwise you're acting like you have some skin in the game. You're just mad because we're talking about your sacred cow instead of another persons. If my criticism of Bruce is obsession, are you also accusing the Taiwan group of being jealous of a far less successful and respected guy like Bruce? Really? Because you should really read more of that book, they describe their experience with Bruce and it makes him look AWFUL. Like getting his ass handed to him by some mid level, regional competitors and leaning against the wall gasping for breath. So now are they're obsessed with him or just recounting their experiences?
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