Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Re: Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

Postby grzegorz on Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:36 pm

Again I'm sorry to hear about Fred.

I don't know anything about what happened on facebook, I don't do facebook, but I know when I trained there BKF would talk about Dragon and Tiger being used in China to battle cancer. He would talk about a clinic where people made the decision to survive would do Dragon and Tiger all day everyday until their cancer was gone while some didn't take the advice, wouldn't do the qigong, would die.

Being much older now and understanding cancer even more I have a lot of issues with this story. For one thing what were the stages of the cancer? Also what types of cancer were successful and which were not. What happened to the tumors? Did they stop growing or did they just disappear? Did some do the qigong all day and still die? Did anyone have success with stage 4 cancer? Where is this clinic and are they still doing Dragon and Tiger today?

Unfortunately although I have no doubt that BKF was telling us what he experienced some of students would take the story and read between the lines and were convinced that Dragon and Tiger cured cancer and that somehow if someone died of cancer it was because they couldn't move their chi.
Last edited by grzegorz on Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
User avatar
grzegorz
Wuji
 
Posts: 6151
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:42 pm
Location: The laughing stock of the world!

Re: Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

Postby greytowhite on Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:31 am

Fucking guy cannot stop beating a dead horse and attacks Kumar through everyone that's trained with him.

-deadhorse-
Last edited by greytowhite on Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
greytowhite
Huajing
 
Posts: 434
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:33 pm
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

Re: Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

Postby xingyijesse on Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:39 am

Still not addressing the points I made. And again, you guys have a tenuous grasp of the truth, I only jumped into it on Facebook because your guy Richard was insulting everyone by saying that all other styles are wrong. So pointing it out there and here is not in any way attacking everyone who trained with BK. Can you guys stick to just refuting what I say instead of making up things I've said or done?
xingyijesse
Santi
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:43 am

Re: Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

Postby greytowhite on Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:14 am

Dude, you write like a Redditard: I'm so smart, asshole comment, ignore response. Me so smart, why you not engage with my point? Must not be smart yourself, attack more.

No one owes you anything here and it seems to me, having the ability to read and comprehend, others have already provided enough response to your points.

Richard is skilled and passionate about what he does and unashamedly vocal about it. He's also a kind person who put up with my harassment whilst I was manic and still made time to meet with me a year later. I consider him a friend now, he answers my phone calls and often has an informed perspective. Have you touched hands with him? Sat down and talked with him about his experiences? These separated mediums of communication provide an anonymity buffer. Funny that you brought it up, it's a great example of your agenda. He finds more value in training with Kumar than his past teachers. Who am I to say otherwise about his experience? What I can tell you is that he has skill and cross trains with other arts outside of what he does with Frantzis and that skill is readily evident.
User avatar
greytowhite
Huajing
 
Posts: 434
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:33 pm
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

Re: Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

Postby xingyijesse on Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:27 am

Still not addressing what I said. I got into it with him and was super clear about it because he said everyone else was fooled and taught wrong. He wasn't just being passionate about his beliefs. That is not attacking everyone
xingyijesse
Santi
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:43 am

Re: Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

Postby JessOBrien on Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:06 am

Multiple myeloma led to Fred Gordon's death. You could blame it on his love of chi gung, his faith in prayer or his care from the VA, but in the end he died from an incredible vicious and virulent form of cancer brought on by Agent Orange. The fact that you want to put that on Kumar shows that your obsession is going to absurd heights.

I'm not interested in convincing you of anything. For many years I've answered questions about Kumar from people who are curious about him and unable or unwilling to go ask him in person. I'll continue to do so when time permits.

However, when you talk shit about someone I care about who is not here to defend himself, I have to draw a line. That's unacceptable.

If you want to continue to make personal attacks, let's move it over to private communication.

My email is [email protected]
JessOBrien
Great Old One
 
Posts: 648
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:04 am

Re: Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

Postby grzegorz on Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:31 am

greytowhite wrote:Dude, you write like a Redditard: I'm so smart, asshole comment, ignore response. Me so smart, why you not engage with my point? Must not be smart yourself, attack more.

No one owes you anything here and it seems to me, having the ability to read and comprehend, others have already provided enough response to your points.

Richard is skilled and passionate about what he does and unashamedly vocal about it. He's also a kind person who put up with my harassment whilst I was manic and still made time to meet with me a year later. I consider him a friend now, he answers my phone calls and often has an informed perspective. Have you touched hands with him? Sat down and talked with him about his experiences? These separated mediums of communication provide an anonymity buffer. Funny that you brought it up, it's a great example of your agenda. He finds more value in training with Kumar than his past teachers. Who am I to say otherwise about his experience? What I can tell you is that he has skill and cross trains with other arts outside of what he does with Frantzis and that skill is readily evident.


Grey,

Chill out dude and smoke a doobie.

I am half joking with you because you are the one coming on like a full Reddit assault by digging up last names. Yes, think about that you gave us dude's full name while you haven't given up yours.

People know who I am and I even appear in some videos. But I don't use that or my past in each and every post because it doesn't matter.

Richard is a great guy and I have no doubt that BKF is the best teacher he has ever had. Richard is deep and so is BKF.

Saying that I don't think that any one teacher is for everyone on this planet. When I trained there the public weekly class ended after a number of years training there. BKF told us that we were nice people and didn't really want to learn martial arts that we were there for spiritual reasons, the problem is I wasn't. I wasn't there for spiritual instruction, I wasn't there for a guru and I was there to train and although it wasn't the primary goal of those classes it was what I focused on. So when those classes ended and week long meditation retreats became the focus I moved on. It wasn't the teacher for me and it wasn't the school for me. Also I already had a background in zen and Tibetan meditation.

I continued to train with some of his instructors and some instructors who also moved on. The interesting thing is one taught me his modified Wu style but he was completely honest that it was his form from his years of studying other styles. For me it was a great relief to find teachers and people who were completely honest about what they knew or didn't know and were willing to give me their time to train me of course it wasn't free but it was a long way from what I had before and from being told what I wanted to learn.

Sounds to me that Jesse, like me, has questions of his own. So rather then cyber bullying him why not listen to him and or answer his questions? I know three people personally who died of cancer who trained there. If Fred was convinced that this stuff would stop and or reverse his cancer I take issue with that. It's nothing personal, in China too where I ended up it became clear that people there make all kinds of claims and I didn't like it there and I don't like it here. I don't know the whole story but as I mentioned there are some there who seem to believe that this stuff can cure cancer. I don't believe it because there are just too many factors involved to say that moving chi is all you need.

Jesse can stick up for himself but I see no reason to cyber bully someone who doesn't hold your opinion and I believe you should delete his last name. In fact it has nothing to do with Jesse, if someone wants to fully identify themselves that should be there own decision.
Last edited by grzegorz on Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:02 pm, edited 9 times in total.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
User avatar
grzegorz
Wuji
 
Posts: 6151
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:42 pm
Location: The laughing stock of the world!

Re: Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

Postby greytowhite on Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:58 pm

Eh, guy is on Facebook and goes by his real name, he knows who I am. I'll edit my post for his privacy, still don't like the guy, he's repeating a pattern of attack that's been going on for years and it's gotten really old.
User avatar
greytowhite
Huajing
 
Posts: 434
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:33 pm
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

Re: Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

Postby edededed on Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:08 pm

Hey guys - let's not be personal/emotional... keep it civil...

Just curious, but I was told that Guo Lin qigong was used in clinics in China for late-stage cancer patients (who had no other options). Practice was long - hours a day, but the practice is gentle (looks like walking with extra movements, plus special breathing). The story above sounds rather like this - is dragon and tiger qigong maybe one part of Guo Lin qigong? (There are several parts in the system, not all of which are needed for cancer patients. The walking qigong seems one of the most common parts.)

Also to xingyijesse: I've practiced Liang style for many years now. If Liu's video had added the upward-cut palm (liaozhang) to piercing palm (chuanzhang) to the end like Liang style, it would have been more notable to me, but that's just me!
User avatar
edededed
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3905
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:21 am

Re: Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

Postby grzegorz on Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:02 am

Thanks Grey,

Obviously I don't know the details but let's keep Facebook Facebook and RSF RSF.

Besides I hate everything about FB. If it were up to me we would push that entire corporation into the bay.

Ed,

I duckduckgoed Dragon and Tiger qigong and got bunch of videos on it and a lot from Brookline which is a group near or outside of Boston that focuses on BKF's health stuff. I think you will find it interesting. I would definitely like to know more about cancer and qigong. If it does work hopefully these practices will be used world wide much the way acupuncturists and chiropractors are working in workers comp and disability clinics.

There are quite a few videos I didn't watch them but I recognize the people from the retreats. Essentially you trace the same meridians in acupuncture with your hands about a fist distance from your body.
Last edited by grzegorz on Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:14 am, edited 6 times in total.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
User avatar
grzegorz
Wuji
 
Posts: 6151
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:42 pm
Location: The laughing stock of the world!

Re: Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

Postby LaoDan on Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:03 am

The role of the mind in overcoming illnesses is important. Even in conventional medicine it is known that patients with a will to overcome the disease (the fighters) have a better prognosis than passive or depressed patients (and especially those who give up to their illness). Conventional medicine uses support groups, encourages family and community support, etc. in order to improve the chances that a patient will survive serious illnesses.

Most “alternative” approaches to medicine can be used to supplement conventional medicine (including faith and prayer, belief in alternative medical approaches like qigong, etc.) because they improve the belief that the disease may be able to be overcome, especially if the patient believes that what they are personally doing may increase their chances (rather than solely relying passively on the doctors). As I see it, this only becomes a problem when conventional medical approaches are excluded and the alternative approach is exclusively relied upon. But that is just my opinion, others view things differently; for example, faith based healing proponents may think that if one is relying at all on conventional medicine then there is some degree of doubt and then their faith cannot be strong enough, and their chances for the faith based healing will be diminished.

It is known that the mind can often change one’s response to diseases, and this is so widely recognized that scientific studies typically need placebo controls in order to give meaningful results. So, it is important to encourage the belief that someone can overcome an illness; to increase their “fight”. Whether this is effectively accomplished through prayer, through alternative approaches, through social support and encouragement, etc. likely differs from individual to individual.

I do not know the specifics of qigong therapy in Asia, BKF and his use of the belief in qigong (I think that he credits it with healing himself and would therefore likely have a strong personal belief in its usefulness, although that doesn’t mean that his personal experience will work for others since every individual and situation is unique), or Fred's specific situation. If BKF was encouraging Fred to fight the cancer by boosting his belief in qigong practice, then I personally think that this would be a good thing and something that was unlikely to cause harm, UNLESS conventional treatments were rejected in order to focus exclusively on qigong. But that would also have been Fred’s choice; it does NOT sound like BKF was attempting to get Fred to give up the fight! Everyone needs to determine for themselves how they choose to carry out the fight – not everyone wins their battle.

Because of ethical concerns, I doubt that many research articles compare conventional treatments with alternative only treatments. But conventional treatments compared with conventional + supplemental approaches seem to show improvements when the supplemental alternatives are included in the treatments. Whether these improvements are just due to the placebo effect does not really matter if the patient outcomes are improved! Encouragement, of whatever form, seems to help at least some patients.
LaoDan
Huajing
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 11:51 am

Re: Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

Postby JessOBrien on Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:47 am

Ed- I can't find written confirmation, but I believe that in my notes somewhere it says that the teacher of the Dragon and Tiger chi gung that Kumar learned in Beijing was associated with Guo Lin. The woman that taught him was a member of Gou Lin's group, in some capacity, although the set is a different one from the "walking qigong" taught by Guo Lin.

I've never heard Kumar, or any other chi gung teacher, say that their students forgo western medical treatment. That would be utterly stupid, irresponsible and dangerous to suggest. Chi gung is used to help build up your body and energy to survive the disease and the allopathic treatment. If somebody goes into remission during the process, I could see how some would think that the chi gung saved their lives, but I'm highly skeptical of any claims to cure cancer. I've seen too many die from that cruel and merciless disease.
JessOBrien
Great Old One
 
Posts: 648
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:04 am

Re: Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:49 am

A student of mine back in the 70's wrote a book called
The power of chi
It was about him using chi gung he learnt from Shakesphere Chan in Manila to cure cancer
Even though he had chemo therapy and mentioned it in the book most people I spoke to thought it was the chi Kung that did it
Here in oz they are getting women who are being treated for Brest cancer to train quite heavily
They are finding this is benificial to the outcome
No chi gung just physical exercise
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 3554
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

Postby grzegorz on Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:59 pm

JessOBrien wrote:I've never heard Kumar, or any other chi gung teacher, say that their students forgo western medical treatment. That would be utterly stupid, irresponsible and dangerous to suggest. Chi gung is used to help build up your body and energy to survive the disease and the allopathic treatment. If somebody goes into remission during the process, I could see how some would think that the chi gung saved their lives, but I'm highly skeptical of any claims to cure cancer. I've seen too many die from that cruel and merciless disease.


Meanwhile we are seeing one of biggest measles outbreaks in the US due to people not vaccinating themselves and their children.

I agree it is ridiculous for anyone to think that qigong will save you from a stage 4 tumor eating at your insides.

Faith, belief? Sure it can help but the same was said by many who believed that they would beat cancer. Steve Jobs didn't think he needed medicine either. I am not a fan but many are. I hear you but I think it's best if people just stopped talking about qigong altogether.

I don't buy it that qigong is the end all be all and whenever I show anyone any qigong I don't say anything about cancer and I find offensive and irresponsible when any teacher does.
Last edited by grzegorz on Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:23 pm, edited 4 times in total.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
User avatar
grzegorz
Wuji
 
Posts: 6151
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:42 pm
Location: The laughing stock of the world!

Re: Bruce Franzis - Hsing I & I Chuan - 11 CD set...

Postby edededed on Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:40 pm

grzegorz: Thanks - sounds interesting. I will try to see what is online (YouTube?) to check out what the practice looks like.

Jess: Interesting about the relation with Guo Lin. Do you know the Chinese name of the dragon-tiger set? Maybe I could find some information on the (Chinese) Web...

I did not personally learn Guo Lin's qigong, but it seems to be a large curriculum overall, although the walking qigong is the most famous. Apparently the breathing is particular to it, designed to help combat cancer. In my opinion, it was Guo Lin's attempt to try to redesign qigong for cancer treatment purposes - leading to spontaneous regression of cancer, which is a documented medical phenomenon, but one that we don't really know how to control very well. I think that future practices could potentially harness this power of the body better than what we know now.
User avatar
edededed
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3905
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:21 am

PreviousNext

Return to Been There Done That

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest