Some IMA Applications from Bas Rutten

[Ian]

Robinhood, who is your teacher? This is not a challenge, but you keep speaking highly of a certain someone. Would you care to share?

[Mello]

i think we should consider judo to be an IMA

[Patrick]

I think we should look at the actual training methods and goals, than putting on some ontological categories over the systems. Judo has a different way of utilizing the body than e.g. Yi Quan.
If people use some arbitrary attribtues for discerning categories, then either the categorization is too narrow - then people feel left out (often if they associate a positive value with that categorization)- or too wide and then everything can be an internal style.

[Mello]

probably true. i don't believe in internal styles, i think of it in terms of internal attributes of individuals and their training.

[Tiga Pukul]

Just curious, and really purely armchair, but in the original stills in this thread did anyone notice one common tactic , somewhat hallmark in IMA, that would have been instrumental in stopping Bas' techniques?

Well for me that is typical is that the attacker is not grounded in any attack (giving away his balance way too soon) and his distance is too far (so you see the attacker leaning a bit as well). That should be number one in a proper attack and gives you much more options to counter bas' defense. But don't think that is typical IMA. Offcourse this is only based on the photo's and these can be very deceptive.

If you see the self-defense videos of Bas, too be honest I see some pretty basic jiu jitsu techniques against things like grabs. And sometimes not even doing it propperly. Sure Bas can compensate with strength and aggression but talking about clean technique? no not really, too many gaps in the defense. Again this is theory ;-) Would not like to be on the receiving side of Bas' hits

[Leishen]

Leishen,

However, how come we are talking these things in an IMA forum, training in IMA?

Why not talk about it here? The only thing that matters is whether or not it's true, not whether or not it makes IMA look bad. If it's not true, it ought to be fairly easy to rebut. If it is true, then would you prefer that we ignore the truth and just pretend that everything is fine and that nothing about IMA can be criticized? No one should be more critical of what we do than we ourselves.

Hey Chris
Of course this is a healthy way of thinking, however I take it as granted that most of the people on this forum have allready been exposed to this sad reality for the majority of TMA nowdays.
I don't think that most of us are here talking, when at the same time like to do fancy forms without context, or without some prior exposure to other styles of MA other than the Internals. Most people here have a lot of experience in the field of martial arts and I don't see here the wushu type, or the new age/hippie type of people, or guys that just started doing only IMA and nothing else in their life.

The reality that us people are already here, indicates to me a very healthy oriented style of thinking either way . Otherwise we would have been be in Taobums or the likes.
Although many things are as you described them to be, on the other hand I prefer to see more talking in general about decoding or exploring the "terra incognita" of IMA, than to spent so much time to say that the earth is round.
It is one thing to criticize the bad options of the IMA, which is very useful to some degree, however at the same time the good options should be more evident in a forum for the Internals and should emphasized too.

Why do we have to continue this road of IMA when we see more fallacies and mistakes in what we do and at the same time we see the other styles as more appropriate? Why not abandon the neijia then?

Best

[Chris McKinley]

Leishen,

Since you're being a nice guy about, I don't want to crank too hard, but you're really just dressing up a nice way of getting around back to that same old fallacious argument that 'if you're going to criticize it, maybe you should do something else'.

I don't think that most of us are here talking, when at the same time like to do fancy forms without context, or without some prior exposure to other styles of MA other than the Internals.

Funny, after ten plus years of reading and posting to this forum, my impression is that's precisely what most of the people posting here are doing.

Most people here have a lot of experience in the field of martial arts and I don't see here the wushu type, or the new age/hippie type of people, or guys that just started doing only IMA and nothing else in their life.

Experience in the field of martial arts means almost nothing to me. It has very, very little to do with real combat ability. I've been a lifelong martial artist for 37 years since the age of 6 and have had exposure to several dozen martial arts systems along the way, and to literally thousands of martial artists over that time. That's like Inigo Montoya asking Westley to take his word for it as a Spaniard.

The fact that there are a lot of nice non-hippie/new agers (as well as some nice hippie/new agers) either here or in the IMA community at large who train really hard at what they do and really take their art seriously has absolutely no bearing on the fact that most IMA practitioners in my country cannot fight functionally to any seriously appreciable level, no matter how long they've been doing it or with whom they've been training.

It is one thing to criticize the bad options of the IMA, which is very useful to some degree, however at the same time the good options should be more evident in a forum for the Internals and should emphasized too.

LOL! That one is just funny. This entire forum since its inception has been and is a constant neverending deluge of threads and posts celebrating, promoting, analyzing and sharing those "good options" regarding the Chinese internal martial arts. So much so, in fact, that it's known as the single best source of information on the entire internet worldwide for that particular information. Well over 99% of all the threads that get started here are of that particular bent. And that's a good thing. A very good thing. It's also a good thing to retain some intellectual honesty and discuss everything about our arts....the good, the bad and the ugly, including those areas where we as practitioners need the most improvement.

There's no dearth of "Yay, team! IMA are great!" threads. They're everywhere. We're soaking in them. And for me, that's fine because I absolutely love the IMA, having spent 29 years studying them and teaching them to others, and owing my life to the skills I have acquired from them. What is still far too rare is the honesty, objectivity and integrity to take an unbiased critical look at what we do to make sure that it's the best we can make it be. We're all too willing to promote what we do right, even to the point of self-puffery, if the reputation of the IMA in general is any indicator. We're still not mature enough as a community to take a critical look at what we aren't doing so well, even when doing so is so often the first step in rectifying it and even dramatically improving it.

Why do we have to continue this road of IMA when we see more fallacies and mistakes in what we do and at the same time we see the other styles as more appropriate? Why not abandon the neijia then?

I've defended the viability of the Chinese internal martial arts in contexts as tough as any other human being who has ever posted on this forum has faced, including lineage masters, period. I don't need lectures about its value from anyone. The only reason to ever abandon the IMA is if it gets to the point where it cannot a) laugh at itself occasionally, and b) look at itself critically from time to time.

[Robinhood]

Robinhood, who is your teacher? This is not a challenge, but you keep speaking highly of a certain someone. Would you care to share?

Not someone most people would would have heard of, and not someone that is looking for fame or recognition.

I think the best people you will not see on you tube, unless someone catches them by mistake, unless they are trying to promote themselves, because they want to sell you something or have an ego problem.

[Chris McKinley]

Meh....more clandestine obsolescence, IMO. There's no danger of excessive fame or recognition from having your name appear on a forum such as RSF. Personally, I don't care who you train with, only how and what you train, but when you keep making cutesy references to some magical mystery guru as your own personal Yoda, well...I suppose it's natural that folks who have already seen behind the green curtain a million times might get a little curious.

[Robinhood]

Its nice to see there are a few people in this forum that know that there is a clear difference between the internal - external definitions even thou the words aren't the best, but it works. I do think once you understand the difference the words do fit the description better.

You will always get the guys that think there is only one engine, but ha, we are just sharing our experiences here, not trying to sell anything to anybody, isn't that what this place is for?

IMA engines also works just as well on the ground as it does standing up, IMA is not about having hundreds of techniques, its about having the internal core that allows any technique to work without resorting to the use of excess force to make something work.

[beegs]

the last thing I saw bas do was when Shamrock took him out in less than one minute, he did not act so tough after that.

last thing you saw? Bas didnt even know grappling back then, he went on to win his next 8 fights in pancrase 6 by submission and then ufc fights, i think he won something like his last 20 fights without a loss

This is the first day of IMA school we're talking about, it's a school of higher learning, the first thing a wrestler has to learn is not to build the bridge for a qualified IMA guy it's all he needs.

bas hits harder than anyone i ever met, and hes is so athletic its ridiculous. cpould he be even more poweful if he trained internal methods? who knows, but he is far from lacking power and does not do any sort of internal training. as for fighting , he would drop so many so called internal masters in a heartbeat. Professional fighting at an elite level is a school of higher learning

bas is a genetic beast and an incredible athlete and hard worker, he crushes bridges lol

[Andy_S]

Beegs:

No question Bas is the business. And (unlike some posters above) I have no problem with the "simplicity" of some of his technques: Basic technique, well applied thanks to experience and conditioning is the acme of combat.

Intricate techniques without fighting experience get you nowhere. I don't believe in "advanced techniques" thought I do believe in "refined techniques."

But I do wonder how many MMA guys you have met who are still actively training and evolving later in life, past their competitive careers? Some of the BJJ guys are definitely maturing with age, but I am not sure about the competitive MMA fighters. As we all know, IMA gives you a tool to keep sharpening yourself with even as you age.

[Chris McKinley]

Andy's starting to get into the kind of thing I advocate. Learn how to really beat dat azz up front. Get better at it for a few years via hardcore training to whatever level your needs require. Then, unless you're a pro, go out and enjoy your life and quit worrying about martial artsy crap. Just maintain occasionally and you'll still be able to beat the silk out of any 8-hour/day guys you care to try. As you're doing all this, begin the lifelong slow process of building real internal skills in no particular hurry. Once you get to where you'd rather go on a camping trip with the family than compete in the old farts category in a sport tourney, you'll still have all your badassery on tap if you're in relatively decent shape, plus you'll have all the extra benefits of what the internal arts offer, both in fighting and in living large.

[Wanderingdragon]

I too think Bas is a baaaaaad dude, but I also wonder if the joke is in falling into the void when you crush the bridge, because if you've built a bridge you're surely in the middle of it.
Professional fighting at an elite level, is merely the school of hard knocks, and as the saying goes, "experience is a great teacher, but it's a fool who goes to the school".

[Robinhood]

You build a bridge that supports you but not him, you can use it, but you don't want him to be able to use it.