Some IMA Applications from Bas Rutten

[Tiga Pukul]

As much as I appreciate Bas Rutten as a fellow dutchman and a well known tough guy, I understand that these photo's resembling IMA, is nothing but a joke, to get a discussion started. Funny but obviously these pictures show just some brute force attacks, wide punches, big preliminary movements etc... Effective for the most part but, come on, if we want to learn that, than just forget about training stuff like IMA.
I don't get the deal with these discussions. We know people have respect for MMA and other ringbased sports, I too have respect for their heart and will to train very hard, but isn't it getting time to have some respect for our own internal arts as well? I think that is the only way to preserve the little that is left. Re-building IMA by mixing it up with judo, bjj, muay thai and mma is a possibility, but for me it's the end of IMA when we get on that track. That's just MMA with a little bit flavour of IMA. Some people don't care, I do, and luckily some more as well, although a minority sadly.

[Chris McKinley]

Leishen,

However, how come we are talking these things in an IMA forum, training in IMA?

Why not talk about it here? The only thing that matters is whether or not it's true, not whether or not it makes IMA look bad. If it's not true, it ought to be fairly easy to rebut. If it is true, then would you prefer that we ignore the truth and just pretend that everything is fine and that nothing about IMA can be criticized? No one should be more critical of what we do than we ourselves.

[johnwang]

As much as I appreciate Bas Rutten as a fellow dutchman and a well known tough guy, I understand that these photo's resembling IMA, is nothing but a joke, to get a discussion started.

He may be able to use smaller move to achieve the same result, but he is definitely using a 100% TCMA principle "夹(Jai) - head clamping (upper side hold break)" here. Before you can criticize him, you should ask yourself, do you understand the "夹(Jai) - head clamping (upper side hold break)" principle in the IMA world?

If a non-IMA guy can apply the principle of "夹(Jai) - head clamping (upper side hold break)" better than an IMA guy does, what does that tell you?

[Josealb]

This thread made me go watch some Bas fights, and in the 3rd fight with Jason Delucia, these two gems pop up with 3 seconds between them.

[johnwang]

If something works in combat, why should you care about whether it's "external" or "internal"? White cat or black cat, as long as it catches mice, it's good cat.

[cerebus]

Be funny if it worked that way in real life. The truth is that there's maybe a dozen IMA practitioners in the U.S. who could even give a Judo master a decent fight to begin with, nevermind that are good enough to justify asking him to unlearn his stuff to adopt theirs.

Mmmm.... not sure about that. I'm no master, but I've fought wrestlers and Judoka and won. The key is to NOT wrestle a wrestler. Always CONTROL THE DISTANCE! If you don't, then a wrestler or Judoka will kick your ass. But if you CAN control the distance (I'm somewhat good at doing so myself) then you can defeat the wrestler or Judoka...

[Wanderingdragon]

Just curious, and really purely armchair, but in the original stills in this thread did anyone notice one common tactic , somewhat hallmark in IMA, that would have been instrumental in stopping Bas' techniques?

[Chris McKinley]

I'm sticking by my claim, Troy, and your post did nothing to rebuke or even mitigate it. Please note, I didn't state "Judoka", I stated Judo master. I can school average Judoka myself. Same goes at least double with most IMA practitioners, including most IMA instructors. Those aren't the folks I referenced. Yes, it's true that you don't want to get suckered into playing their specialty if at all possible, but highly skilled Judoka are just as good at controlling distance as you, me or anybody else is. The real thing is not quite as easy as tritely saying, "Don't box a boxer."

[Wanderingdragon]

So IMA practitioners vs Judo Master is more fair than IMA practitioner vs Judoka, wouldn't you want to match Master against Master?

[Chris McKinley]

I would, at least if I were interested in being fair, but you'd have to ask John....it was his analogy.

[Wanderingdragon]

Cool, gotcha I was noticing in Bas' pics, on each demo he left room for elbow control, without actually controlling his opponent with anything other than implied speed and force, anyone aware may have been able to find his weak side I'm sure I had to be there.

[Chris McKinley]

Especially in that first one, yeah. But then, I'm not a big fan of head butts anyway. I prefer the much safer head grind instead, so...ehh. Still, the kind of dude that would be double-handed grabbing with nearly locked elbows from that distance is not likely to be the kind of skilled fighter who has the tactile reaction speed or even awareness to take control of Bas's elbows before that head makes contact.

[johnwang]

I like this head butts better.

[kreese]

I was thinking more XYLH on the headbutt.

If you read my post in the Chinese CCTV gong fu challenges, and you watch the top masters, not the young guys, you will see very simple, relaxed but powerful full-body strikes that are felt or even knock down an unstable opponent.

There is a physical vocabulary in CMA. You have to learn it, and move like that, not like boxing, thai boxing, whatever. Of course you are free to move any way you want, if you don't care about brand names. I don't. I don't think anyone who cross-trains does after a while.

So, plus the fact that I've been at this game a little longer than you, jonathan, though I believe that you are in top shape and started off with a great teacher, and are therefore probably far ahead of where I was five years ago, the real art is in the hands of masters, and while I have no doubt your master is great, it's in free fighting (sport, whatever, it's all a competition = you win), that you get to see the real flavor.

Bas has different influences, but if you watch him in motion, it's very eye-opening. He kicks more like bagua. Everything is meant to hurt.

The art happens between you and opponent, and will always have a strong external component if your opponent has anything at all. But if you develop the internal as well, and according to your argument, you can't see whether it's internal or not, unless you are comparing to a very limited and stylistic expression of the ideal.

Every different high-level master I've met had certain things in common, but a very different facet of the IMAs in general. Hard, soft, aggressive, completely non-aggressive, the expressions are as diverse as the people who express them.

Just my opinion, I certainly respect and will consider your opinion, but I've heard it 1000 times here in the past 10 years, on EF > RSF. In my opinion that just limits your perspective, and I'll take anything that I does not directly violate certain principles, and certainly most of the effective moves in fights are effective for a reason

But one thing that is always the same in anyone who is a champion fighter, they are relaxed. Not just physically, but mentally and emotionally as well. The outer doesn't take that long, although it's a lifetime process, but the inner is where the IMA is, and that's what I look for now when I watch fights or application demos.

And if you don't specifically train that relaxation, or consider it a top priority (fighters do, because it is part of energy management/qigong skills as well as essential for lightning-quick movements), you may not see certain things with your eyes.

Peace.

[Robinhood]

I kind of find it funny how people have such a hard time seeing things that are so clear to other people.

I am sure most IMA people did many years of external MA before meeting someone who had IMA application, I know I went the external route for over 20 years before finding out that I really did not know anything about real MA APPLICATION, sure I could do stuff like the rutten was doing, but I did not have any kind of edge or control of the situation at all.

If you can't find the guy that's half your size and makes you feel like you don't know anything ,and any technique you do doesn't work ,and does this using very little effort, then you need to keep looking for a teacher, you will not find it on your own.

External stuff is fine for keeping you in shape, but if you want to invest in your future, external is a law of diminishing return, like a container of water with holes in it that is constantly leaking, if you don't keep putting water in it it will go empty.

If someone wants to find what IMA is, they don't need to give up the external application, just put it on hold for awhile so you can work on building a different motor to drive your techniques.