What is IMA sparring supposed to look like?

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Re: What is IMA sparring supposed to look like?

Postby beegs on Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:31 am

it should resemble the 2 man sets only in a non structured way, just maybe we should see some of the actual stuff one trains for their years in the art.

if its vs other arts of coure it will differ but you should still see tha concepts and body method in motion

fighting is fighting but a school yard kid doesnt really look like a trained boxer when he fights even if his hands are held like a boxer

with these guys here, whether you would say good, bad or indifferent,by looking at them, you WOULD know that they do some wing chun,

Last edited by beegs on Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What is IMA sparring supposed to look like?

Postby cloudz on Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:39 am

johnwang wrote:
Walk the Torque wrote:I think Hsing Yi would look quite different to Tai Chi for that reason alone.

One XingYi master said, "If I can't knock you down by my 1st Beng Chuan, and I need to use my 2nd Beng Chuan to knock you down, you should be proud of yourself".

the XingYi master 薛颠(Xue Dian) once gave a demonstration. He stood on oneside of the bench. Suddently he was on the other side of that bench. Nobody could even tell how did he move under that bench so fast. Some people in the audience had intention to challenge him (Xue had announced that he would accpet all public challenge). They all changed their mind after that demo. How can you fight someone who can move as fast as ghost?

In the ancient time, most of the TCMA masters didn't have to fight. The moment that their arm made contact, one guy will say, "You are late". The other guy then would say, "You are right. I'm late". The fight would stop righ at that moment. When a Chinese said, "You are late", that means "You will lose."


This may tell a lot, and not anything good.
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Re: What is IMA sparring supposed to look like?

Postby Mello on Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:16 am

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Re: What is IMA sparring supposed to look like?

Postby liokault on Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:45 am

DeusTrismegistus wrote:I was just reading another thread and imagining challenging Chen Xiaowang to a fight. However, I like striking, and wrestling with a Chen master might not be a great idea. So my strategy would be to punch him in the face. Now regardless of outcome, what would you expect to see in the exchange so you wouldn't just call the striking external?

I know this might be BTDT but I am honestly curious what others think since I am not certain of my own answer.


You’re asking two different questions here:

1: Looking "internal": well, it would just be like the Matrix dude, all slow motion and bendy.

2: Reality: The punch would be big and telegraphed, it would strike Chen on the side of the head but it would have little effect other than shocking him. After a 3 second pause while Chen comes to the realisation that he was actually just punched in the head, the fight would then go to a clinch, then the clinch would go to the ground where the biggest/strongest/luckiest guy would win. No one would come out looking good.
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Re: What is IMA sparring supposed to look like?

Postby Bao on Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:51 am

johnwang wrote:Sometime we mis-understand the Taiji principle, ...The moment that you can sense his intention, you attack. The key is you will need to have excellent judgement about your opponent's "intention" (how and where he is going to move). You then enter that "leak" that he is going to create but hasn't created it yet. The moment that your body has moved into your opponent, the moment that your opponent will expose his "leak" for you. That's "lighting speed". I believe any good TCMA master should all fight like this.


I think this is a great quote. I do believe that understanding or "sensing" intention and also timing are the two keys.

For many years ago, when I also practiced some external Kung-Fu and practiced sparring a lot. whenever I tried to sparr a couple of my Tai chi teachers... Well, how to describe it? Ok, it goes like this: If I moved slightly, my teacher would move, adjusting according to my position. Whatever I did, he would shift his angles so I must move and shift my posture again. He closed his door just by moving slightly. I had no opening to enter. And when I attacked, it was like I just went right into a trap. And he was fast. If I entered his reach, his fist was allready in my face or he had allready pulled my to the floor. It was totally scaring. I could do nothing and whatever I did, it felt like he had allready read my intention before I even did something.
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Re: What is IMA sparring supposed to look like?

Postby Tesshu on Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:10 am

DeusTrismegistus wrote:I was just reading another thread and imagining challenging Chen Xiaowang to a fight. However, I like striking, and wrestling with a Chen master might not be a great idea. So my strategy would be to punch him in the face. Now regardless of outcome, what would you expect to see in the exchange so you wouldn't just call the striking external?

I know this might be BTDT but I am honestly curious what others think since I am not certain of my own answer.



The question is, if you are punched in the face, does it really matter if this punch is internal or external or whatever?! You will always have to deal with a lot of force and pain.
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Re: What is IMA sparring supposed to look like?

Postby Steve Rowe on Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:37 am

If it was just internal both exponents would stand looking at each other until one fell over, if the internal manifests itself externally - they'd fight like animals.
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Re: What is IMA sparring supposed to look like?

Postby kreese on Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:00 am

IMA sparring should be free from moments of freezing into tension. From there, you do what feels best to you, really, to try to describe a specific style is pointless.

Just relax and keep changing, keep breathing, and most of all have control of your mind so that you can choose to not lock up.

That is one thing you see in low level MMA, but again, the masters who just breathe, look very calm, and thank God for not getting injured after each fight, they tend to be more fluid, connected, relaxed, focused, and mentally quick.

They adapt, instead of doing the same thing over and over, which is what anyone would do if their art were not somehow unified via some qigong method and some type of principles of movement and just being.

That is a weakness of a "style" made from effective bits of TMA, but again, only like one in how many thousands really show any kind of higher level fighting when someone is trying to hit you with bad intentions.

My first taiji instructor studied the science of taiji, not so well publicized, and he actually documented gong development through balance and gait testing, which I assisted a bit with.

Without some sort of change to the hardware and operating system, it isn't IMA, I think that is for sure. All the supplemental qigong and even massage, which is usually ignored or not taught, are part of a lifestyle that increases your overall powers or abilities to maximize your potential and live a long, meaningful life.

It's about surviving the war, not just winning some of the battles.

It's the combination of a breathing/energy management (I suppose Shooter did come up with that term here, but I've read it myself from Über high level trainers of pro athletes and word-class business executives) that attempts to do some top-down training along with the bottom-up basics, hopefully creating a unified and balanced style that opens up possibilities, rather than closing them off with outdated rules that are sometimes taken too literally due to, well, a subtle form of racism :D but one that can be taken advantage of, just like force is taken advantage of by the IMA master.
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Re: What is IMA sparring supposed to look like?

Postby Sajite on Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:55 am

I've trying to imagine this topic in another kind of martial art's forum... had a hard time doing it....
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Re: What is IMA sparring supposed to look like?

Postby johnwang on Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:37 am

I will expect a good sparring is not like you punches/kicks me 50 times and I punches/kicks you 51 times, I'm 1 point ahead of you. I expect 2 guys will move like 2 lions quitely, suddently, one jumps in and the fight is over.
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Re: What is IMA sparring supposed to look like?

Postby Wanderingdragon on Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:34 am

I would agree with that one John, but the quickness of the battle would be relative to both adversaries skill and experience.
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Re: What is IMA sparring supposed to look like?

Postby DeusTrismegistus on Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:03 am

johnwang wrote:I will expect a good sparring is not like you punches/kicks me 50 times and I punches/kicks you 51 times, I'm 1 point ahead of you. I expect 2 guys will move like 2 lions quitely, suddently, one jumps in and the fight is over.


I really like this and honestly I am not there yet. I am working on that currently in my sparring.

kreese wrote:IMA sparring should be free from moments of freezing into tension. From there, you do what feels best to you, really, to try to describe a specific style is pointless.

Just relax and keep changing, keep breathing, and most of all have control of your mind so that you can choose to not lock up.


I like this one too. I think a hallmark of good IMA is the ability to constantly adjust and change.

liokault wrote:You’re asking two different questions here:

1: Looking "internal": well, it would just be like the Matrix dude, all slow motion and bendy.

2: Reality: The punch would be big and telegraphed, it would strike Chen on the side of the head but it would have little effect other than shocking him. After a 3 second pause while Chen comes to the realisation that he was actually just punched in the head, the fight would then go to a clinch, then the clinch would go to the ground where the biggest/strongest/luckiest guy would win. No one would come out looking good.


I can't really agree with one although I am sure you meant that as sarcasm. As to the second it would be a challenge match not a sucker punch. I realize you don't know me personally but I do have a modicum of skill and I am pretty good at not telegraphing, and I would hope that CXW would be able to deal with a few punches before getting clocked. As to the ground thing if it did go down I think I have a pretty good chance of being bigger and stronger, luck depends on the day. ;D


tesshu wrote:The question is, if you are punched in the face, does it really matter if this punch is internal or external or whatever?! You will always have to deal with a lot of force and pain.


I am pretty used to getting punched in the face.
Steve Rowe wrote:If it was just internal both exponents would stand looking at each other until one fell over, if the internal manifests itself externally - they'd fight like animals.


Was this serious or sarcastic? Either way I can kind of agree with it.
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Re: What is IMA sparring supposed to look like?

Postby Robinhood on Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:49 am

johnwang wrote:
Walk the Torque wrote:I think Hsing Yi would look quite different to Tai Chi for that reason alone.


In the ancient time, most of the TCMA masters didn't have to fight. The moment that their arm made contact, one guy will say, "You are late". The other guy then would say, "You are right. I'm late". The fight would stop righ at that moment. When a Chinese said, "You are late", that means "You will lose."


We must still be in ancient times then, if two people at high internal level touch , you know who is better. And that saying "You are late" should be taken literally, because the guy who is adjusting slower is always one increment behind.
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It is usually the people with no internal skill that never realize they are out matched, and you would have to hurt them or beat the he'll out of them and they still would not get it, they would just go train harder thinking that would fix it, if only they were stronger or faster that would not happen again. Wrong nothing to to with that part, I think to much empathise is given to over powering your opponent, hell you don't need MA to make that work, that's just physics.
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Re: What is IMA sparring supposed to look like?

Postby Bill on Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:44 pm

At the top levels, ima's and ema's look the same. They have the same destination, just a different path to get there.
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Re: What is IMA sparring supposed to look like?

Postby Wanderingdragon on Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:46 pm

I always had a feeling that fighting looked like fighting.
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