Sparring

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Sparring

Postby Crosshands on Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:14 am

This is a bit BTDT I admit but in the last few weeks there has been a lot of BTDT discussion anyway so I don't think I can be blamed for following in that trend.

Since the only way to get good at something is by doing it why is sparring not a greater part of traditional Chinese Martial Arts practice?

From a technical standpoint most MMA hobbyists aren't technically as clean as many traditional stylists. When people see MMA guys launching haymakers they are inclined to comment about apps they could use to defend against such a wide and wild swing. Yet, I would wager that in a real combat situation it would not prove to be so easy.

Surely this has something to do with the way that MMA students train? MMA guys learn things and are made to apply them. There and then. It might not be finessed orthodox boxing or superb boxing, their takedown's might not be olympic level or their ground game Gracie league but they are made to apply and by applying their fighting sense and ability improves.

So why don't we see this approach more widely adopted amongst Kung fu stylists? Why are Kung fu classes still, by and large, heavily skewed towards conditioning, forms and compliant applications?
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Re: Sparring

Postby XinKuzi on Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:27 am

Crosshands wrote:This is a bit BTDT I admit but in the last few weeks there has been a lot of BTDT discussion anyway so I don't think I can be blamed for following in that trend.


Yes. Yes, you can. You are responsible for yourself. ::)

Likewise - If you want to spar, then do it.

Please, admins, move this to BTDT. Or can we just delete this thread and try to move on? Pick up the tattered remains of our lives here... and just... try to move on. :P ;D
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Re: Sparring

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:56 am

Aggressiveness and violence. Two traits common with people who find themselves doing MMA, and are not that common among those who train TMA. That's about it. People freak out in face of crazy motherfuckers, can't operate as well as they do with normal people in a controlled environment, and shit hits the fan. You work on your aggressiveness and violence and you become an animal very quickly. On the flip side, you lose your human touch as well. The price you pay for trying to be both human and a good fighter is, for most people, slower progress.

Paul Chek noted that he had found that almost all the boxers he trained (U.S. olympic team) had serious issues with their parents, usually their fathers. He had such issues as well. 'Nuff said.
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Re: Sparring

Postby Daniel on Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:01 am

Edited for brevity.

D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.
Last edited by Daniel on Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sparring

Postby Crosshands on Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:26 am

jonathan.bluestein wrote:Aggressiveness and violence. Two traits common with people who find themselves doing MMA, and are not that common among those who train TMA. That's about it. People freak out in face of crazy motherfuckers, can't operate as well as they do with normal people in a controlled environment, and shit hits the fan. You work on your aggressiveness and violence and you become an animal very quickly. On the flip side, you lose your human touch as well. The price you pay for trying to be both human and a good fighter is, for most people, slower progress.

Paul Chek noted that he had found that almost all the boxers he trained (U.S. olympic team) had serious issues with their parents, usually their fathers. He had such issues as well. 'Nuff said.


Undoubtedly there is something to what you say about the role of personality. What I would say is that, for instance, Karateka's do more sparring than you find in Chinese martial arts and Karate would still be thought of as 'traditional'. Clearly Chinese Martial arts teachers and students are keen to defend the reputation of what they do. So why isn't sparring even as prevalent in Kung fu circles as it is in Japanese ones?

If your average hobbyist Kickboxer were to fight against your average hobbyist Kung fu student the Kickboxer would win. Not because there is anything inherently superior about Kickboxing to my mind but simply because Kickboxing students tend to get more chance to practice their stuff on non co-operative opponents. If there is this care about the reputation of Chinese Martial arts as martial arts why is it still, after decades now of living with the MMA phenomena, that Kung fu teachers are widely reluctant to include sparring in their teaching?
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Re: Sparring

Postby Mut on Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:51 pm

People freak out in face of crazy motherfuckers, can't operate as well as they do with normal people in a controlled environment, and shit hits the fan.


....that is exactly what is wrong with parts of the training method in many MA schools....
"I've done 19 years of Tae Kwon Do.... I'm a blackbelt third dan.... I don't think I should start with your beginners..." ....phone enquiry I recieved....
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Re: Sparring

Postby Simon on Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:48 pm

Point of training should be to deal with crazy motherfuckers, means there training was screwed from the start.
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Re: Sparring

Postby Patrick on Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:26 am

Aggressiveness and violence. Two traits common with people who find themselves doing MMA, and are not that common among those who train TMA. That's about it. People freak out in face of crazy motherfuckers, can't operate as well as they do with normal people in a controlled environment, and shit hits the fan. You work on your aggressiveness and violence and you become an animal very quickly


I have never seen more passive aggressiveness behaviour than in cma, maybe in some catholic groups.
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Re: Sparring

Postby WingTsunChap on Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:03 am

I agree with Jonathan. When people join a TMA class, their emphasis before they join is usually more on the 'art' than the 'martial'. People will say they are also looking for something to help them in a self defense situation, but they are still more focussed on the art, IMO.

When you join a MMA group, you do so knowing you are going to be hit in the face, hit in the ribs, thrown to the floor, etc. You join knowing that you will be bruised and bloody. You are going to get injured, plain and simple. The average joe interested in, say, Kung Fu, has different goals.

Also, many TMA today avoid heavy sparring/full contact work because it takes away money :-) Ego (and it being dented) is a great way to lose students. Two martial artists spar and the lower grade ends up kicking his senior's butt. Senior guy is not too happy, other students see what happened and question the art, the teachings (if honest, maybe even question themselves).

In a MMA class or a boxing class, etc, a less experienced student does well against a senior and he... gets congratulated by everyone and is slapped on the back for making great progress.
MikeK on what most RSF threads are about: "I have a giant cock. My teacher has a giant cock. I am not willing to show you my cock. My teacher is the only person who learnt how to use his cock properly."
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Re: Sparring

Postby liokault on Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:15 am

Crosshands wrote: So why don't we see this approach more widely adopted amongst Kung fu stylists? Why are Kung fu classes still, by and large, heavily skewed towards conditioning, forms and compliant applications?


Because in 99% of cases, a guy who really wants to sparr full contact will walk into a MMA/Thai/Boxing gym first, not a Kung Fu club. On the same score, a guy who wants the mystic crap, standing alone for hours and investing in high levels of bullshit won't go to a thai club.

In both cases people are getting what they are looking for.
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Re: Sparring

Postby Wanderingdragon on Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:14 pm

-nuke-
Last edited by Wanderingdragon on Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sparring

Postby mixjourneyman on Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:56 pm

because TCMA for the most part suck donkey ball.

however, sparring is only a useful tool for getting to know what it feels like to have punched thrown at you in a situation where two people agree to square off in a fighting stance and toss attacks at each other in a "fair" way.
If you want to train for sport, or fun, then this is totally sufficient and you don't have to do any scenario training, or work with things like fear impulse or actually dishing out or being on the receiving end of something serious.
These days I don't spar,
me and my students and friends do exercises that either work on skill sets to bring to their training (IE: working on detail in a semi freestyle wrestling, or striking environment, getting emotionally open, working with energy at that sort of thing(, or doing something that sort of resembles sparring,but tends to be over within about 10 or 15 seconds because of how disorienting the practice is.
The break down of it is that both parties will basically be trying to really rough each other up with grabs, body shots, and grappling until one of the parties has fallen on the ground (at this point some ground training would be useful,but I don't know enough. It is a hole in my game that I intend to fix upon return to canada). the thing I have noticed is that it never lasts more than a few seconds,because one or both parties always getss knocked down. with shots to the face and head I would imagine it would be over even faster, it is really nasty and I feel more closely simulates fighting than a sparring match. Another idea I would like to work with is having one partner attack the other with very little warning about when they will attack, and to try to knock them down with full intent, so the other essentially has to respond against a surprise attack.
This kind of stuff, I feel has more validity than sparring, and to be honest, if you make most cma guys spar,they just like to "cross hands" like they are building a love bridge to weak technique land, and never actually land any real techniques or do anything decisive.
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Re: Sparring

Postby Wanderingdragon on Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:09 pm

-nuke-
The point . is absolute
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Re: Sparring

Postby mixjourneyman on Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:35 pm

Wanderingdragon wrote:-nuke-



kurukuru pao!!!


say whatever it is that you have on your mind,
you have the freedom to use that massive organic computer of a brain and your little fingers to express your inner frustration.
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Re: Sparring

Postby Wanderingdragon on Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:57 pm

Sparring is a controlled fight in which you work on refining technique one does not try to do the other one should be feeding the other or each feeding the other what they need. This is control, if there is no control there is no learning, out of control, the teacher has no students, the students have no technique, then they have no teacher, only Peers pushing each other around. Only ego makes one a teacher before he is qualified.
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