Looking for good example of neigong/IP in use!

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Re: Looking for good example of neigong/IP in use!

Postby liokault on Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:45 am

Gringorn wrote:OK? How come? Please explain.


Did you watch the video? I didn’t expand on it as its all been said before but to keep it short, he is able to do what you are seeing because the "other" is either letting him or more likely actually jumping around on que at his own volition.
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Re: Looking for good example of neigong/IP in use!

Postby Gringorn on Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:13 am

Wang Chieh was the real deal.

He was, amongst many other things, the teacher of Mike Martello.
Here is one of several clips of Mike training with Wang laoshi.



Several of Mike’s students, including friends of mine, travelled to Taiwan several times to train with Wang Chieh and his students – and they can all testify to Wang’s amazing skills.

As for the clips and what is going on there, one must understand what it is and what it isn’t.
To bounce someone around like that, they need to have a certain structure for you to work with – if not, they will just collapse. But if they collapse, then you’re in already.

But fake? Absolutely not.
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Re: Looking for good example of neigong/IP in use!

Postby liokault on Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:24 am

Gringorn wrote:Wang Chieh was the real deal.

He was, amongst many other things, the teacher of Mike Martello.
Here is one of several clips of Mike training with Wang laoshi.



Several of Mike’s students, including friends of mine, travelled to Taiwan several times to train with Wang Chieh and his students – and they can all testify to Wang’s amazing skills.

As for the clips and what is going on there, one must understand what it is and what it isn’t.
To bounce someone around like that, they need to have a certain structure for you to work with – if not, they will just collapse. But if they collapse, then you’re in already.

But fake? Absolutely not.


I'm not buying it. Everything in the clip you posted screams FAKE to me. There is no way what i'm seeing is not vastly assisted by the cooperation of the stooge.
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Re: Looking for good example of neigong/IP in use!

Postby Gringorn on Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:32 am

OK.

Here Mike is doing some of the same stuff. (There are three of these clips.)



Is this fake too, then?
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Re: Looking for good example of neigong/IP in use!

Postby liokault on Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:00 am

Gringorn wrote:OK.


Is this fake too, then?



Dude, you post that vid then ask if he’s fake!!! Frankly, there are not enough exclamation marks in the world to make my feelings here clear.

Ok, being as polite as possible. Yes, yes, if you are telling me that the he is making the people in that clip do what they are doing, with no cooperation from them, explicit or not, yes he is fake. People just don’t more like that to the stimulus shown. If anything he’s a less convincing fake (inept even) than his teacher, his pushing hands isn't even "good" where I could at least accept that apart from the totally exaggerated reaction of the stooges Wang Chieh had good pushing hands skill.

I'm amazed that in the year 2012 we are still having this discussion. Seriously, it’s like its 1991 all over again and IMA people had just discovered the internet, stumbling blinking like a new born kitten into a world where the harsh light of unlimited exposure and reasoned argument shows that this crap is, well, crap.





Andy_S wrote: When I met him a decade or so back, Docherty would do PH with anyone who walked in the door - it was part of the class.

(snip)
To me, there is no question in my mind that both the Taiji guys are masters,



Dan Docherty for example (who is not my teacher, despite what has been quoted here several times) is a "master" (not a term he applies to himself I understand) That I pushed hands with when I first started training as a bright eyed aggressive 16 year old. I lost a lot; I was totally dominated and controlled. Yes I went flying (forwards and backwards) several times but it didn’t look anything like any of the video clips posted, every reaction I gave was because of and proportionate to an input (his or mine). I didn’t fully extend my legs just because he has two fingers on my wrist. I didn't throw my legs out behind me despite my upper body barely moving.
Last edited by liokault on Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Looking for good example of neigong/IP in use!

Postby GrahamB on Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:08 am

Liokault,

I kind of agree with you - nobody I ever push hands with made me jump around like in those videos either. Sure I get my ass handed to me whenever I push with my teacher, but it doesn't look anything like these videos either. (Although there were lots of simple and good throws in the Mike Martello video that the guy didn't take a dive for, I think).

But..... maybe it's a cultural thing? Does that mean these videos are 'fake' - If Push Hands is a co-operative exercise then how can it be 'fake' to co-operate? Are we saying it's the level of co-operation that is the problem?

Here's a video of me throwing one of my 'students' around (I prefer to think of them as 'training partners' these days) - is this fake? ;D

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Re: Looking for good example of neigong/IP in use!

Postby Gringorn on Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:31 am

OK, so again, it's a matter of seeing what it is and what it isn't.

It's an excercise or whatever you would call it. Partner training. Not free, competitive push hands.
That would of course look very different.

In terms of cooperation, the guys are not cooperating, not helping or playing along. But they are not resisting, trying to fight back, either. Resisting would change the dynamics, it would force your partner to change and use your resistance instead. Which also works. But that is not what they are doing in these clips.

The guys being bounced around all present a solid structure - which gives you something to work with, to push, un-balance, etc. That is why you get those jumps for example. Because their structure doesn't collapse. If they'd collapsed their structure, they wouldn't have been bounced back. But then again, their defenses would have collpased too and they would be completly open. That's my understanding and experience, at least.

I am sure others can explain this far better than I can.

Sam Chin does stuff similar to this. And anyone who has ever met master Chin knows that he certainly is no fake.
The skills are real. They are not the end product, though.
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Re: Looking for good example of neigong/IP in use!

Postby liokault on Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:37 am

GrahamB wrote: But..... maybe it's a cultural thing? Does that mean these videos are 'fake' - If Push Hands is a co-operative exercise then how can it be 'fake' to co-operate? Are we saying it's the level of co-operation that is the problem?


Pushing hands is a cooperative exercise in terms of it being to an agreed format, same as, say boxing. It is fake when one party "chooses" to fall over without any real cause, same as say, boxing. Nowhere in any pushing hands I have ever seen has the level of cooperation gone to the extent of "I do this, then you fall over, ok?". It should be "if I get this right you’re going to fall over".

GrahamB wrote:
Here's a video of me throwing one of my 'students' around (I prefer to think of them as 'training partners' these days) - is this fake? ;D


Well, it is and it isn’t "fake". Your partner was clearly only reacting to actual stimulus from you, he was not acting of his own accord. His reaction was appropriate to the situation, the stimulus and the level of intensity.....all good stuff and no one is fooling anyone (ok ok I didn’t watch it all, but from the first half or so).
I say it’s fake on one level because he is clearly letting you do techniques at him. If you kicked up the level of intensity a few notches things would look very different, but does that make a training exercise more or less "fake" or "real".....probably not.
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Re: Looking for good example of neigong/IP in use!

Postby liokault on Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:49 am

Gringorn wrote:In terms of cooperation, the guys are not cooperating, not helping or playing along. But they are not resisting, trying to fight back, either. Resisting would change the dynamics, it would force your partner to change and use your resistance instead. Which also works. But that is not what they are doing in these clips.


Not resisting is one thing, and its ok. Actually choosing to move where no movement is warranted is another.

Gringorn wrote:
The guys being bounced around all present a solid structure - which gives you something to work with, to push, un-balance, etc. That is why you get those jumps for example. Because their structure doesn't collapse. If they'd collapsed their structure, they wouldn't have been bounced back. But then again, their defenses would have collpased too and they would be completly open. That's my understanding and experience, at least.


That’s really not what’s happening here. In fact, I think its probably the opposite of a "solid" structure. What I see is a guy bouncing and falling around where all that is really warranted from the stimulus is a slight adjustment of arm position and minor change in stance.
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Re: Looking for good example of neigong/IP in use!

Postby yeniseri on Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:06 am

liokault wrote:I'm not buying it. Everything.... posted screams FAKE to me. There is no way what i'm seeing is not vastly assisted by the cooperation of the stooge.




I have never met Master Wang Chieh but what you see expressed is real. Usually it happens (at least, to me) when one follows the path where the teacher is showing you! One may attempt to go in an opposite direction but it may will definately hurt! If one is there to learn, then you follow instead of doing the opposite. My experience with Taiwanese practitioners is there they appear to have more of a didactic approach (the 'higher' practitioners-I do not want to imply closed door)
My recent re-acquaintance with a Yizong practitioner has even made me more aware of simple basics that help to solidify structure with "form". I like to volunteer with well know teachers so you can do the same in a similar frame and see for yourself the extent of what you call fake. That is the best I can do but please be courteous!
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Re: Looking for good example of neigong/IP in use!

Postby liokault on Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:27 am

yeniseri wrote:I have never met Master Wang Chieh but what you see expressed is real. Usually it happens (at least, to me) when one follows the path where the teacher is showing you! One may attempt to go in an opposite direction but it may will definately hurt!



I disagree
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Re: Looking for good example of neigong/IP in use!

Postby Wanderingdragon on Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:49 am

Liokault, most of us have seen your routines,(I think I should emphasize that I said routines and not forms), and based on what we have seen, unless your structural understanding has vastly improved, and as is fairly evident in your observations here, I don't think so, so I am pretty sure you don't even know what you are looking at.
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Re: Looking for good example of neigong/IP in use!

Postby yeniseri on Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:52 am

liokault wrote:
yeniseri wrote:I have never met Master Wang Chieh but what you see expressed is real. Usually it happens (at least, to me) when one follows the path where the teacher is showing you! One may attempt to go in an opposite direction but it may will definately hurt!


I disagree

That's fine and should be the way to excellent learning. Your next step is to politely ask for a demonstration from an actual master and see how wonderful learning is! Your testing of what you see is great so that's a good start.
People are dismissive of the soft but when they hard is applied, they claim someone is trying to do them in as expressed by a well known practitioner, I recall not who!
Some years ago Ren Guangyi asked for volunteers and I was one of the three who volunteered. We were to grab him anywhere we wanted and I, was in pain for a long while!
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Re: Looking for good example of neigong/IP in use!

Postby Foot on Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:46 am

It is easy to decry videos (esp. those of low quality) on the internet as being fake. Here, we have no real contact with any subjects in these videos (an important basis for determining a good martial artist!), and so we are left with two options:

1. Take any visual examples that do not conform to our idea of proper practice/competition as fake.

2. Take on faith that these men -- who are celebrated widely and not only in IMA circles as fantastic martial artists -- do indeed have some legitimate skill that they are demonstrating in some form or another.


Judging by the postures and reactions of these men, the push hands demonstrated are not competitive, nor are they entirely resistive. This is pretty clearly some work between a teacher and his student, which, if you had ever practiced taiji under a halfway decent teacher, would seem entirely familiar. The jumping and spinning you see is NOT due to master Wang's incredible qi development, but much more likely due to the internal sensations Mike was feeling at the time.
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Re: Looking for good example of neigong/IP in use!

Postby liokault on Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:02 pm

Wanderingdragon wrote:Liokault, most of us have seen your routines,(I think I should emphasize that I said routines and not forms), and based on what we have seen, unless your structural understanding has vastly improved, and as is fairly evident in your observations here, I don't think so, so I am pretty sure you don't even know what you are looking at.



Interesting, which of my routines do you think you have seen? While there is quite a lot of footage of me sparring (in various forms), a bit of me grappling (in various forms), I don't think there is any of me doing anything that could be called a routine.
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