Really?

[Doc Stier]

Ai-aah! Yao mo gau cho aah!

Is it really such a big deal to request even one simple photo...just one (1)...which clearly depicts the perfected form of someone who repeatedly claims to have formulated a training method supposedly far superior to virtually every other method on the planet.

A method which is claimed to produce superior results for whoever uses it implies that it has already done so for its founder, doesn't it? Hence, the founder's assumption that he alone is the final word of expert authority in any topic he chooses to post on.

Really? Seriously?

I would think that simply posting one great photo, even w/o a video clip, could be terrific free advertising for such a method and for the man who developed it and teaches it. The mere fact that repeated requests for validating evidence of such extraordinary claims are always treated as if the party in question fears being exposed for misrepresenting both himself and his method.

Grandiose claims always come down to put up or shut up.

[Chris McKinley]

More lies, Stier. If you don't stop the lies, I would very much like to see you banned. You've already been warned for that crap at least once. You have been required to provide even a single quote in which your lying accusations are corroborated. You have never yet even attempted to do so. I won't even ask for one with this particular lie. I've made no mention of perfection of form....there's no such thing. Anyone wanting to know what my claims are can read the thread in context in which they were made. I've asked you so many times that I've lost count to stop the personal bullshit and return to on-topic discussion. In addition to that, I also asked that you not be banned even though your behavior deserved it, but you respond again with another obvious and easily verified lie. If you continue this path of deliberate and unsubstantiated lies, it's on you buddy.

[GrahamB]

For the love of God!!!!!!!!! - Don't you people get tired of going over the same old shit time and time again?

You said this!
I did not say this!
Now I'm not talking to you!
Yes you are!
No I'm not!



Man up!

[Chris McKinley]

Fuck yourself, Graham. You have someone lie about you continuously for nearly a year and see how you enjoy it. I take a lot of shit on this forum and I still choose to put a lot of good information out there on a fairly regular basis for essentially nothing in return but the satisfaction of having shared something with my fellow posters. "Manning up" is being willing to stand against someone attempting to tarnish your integrity with lies by calling them out on their bullshit.

[affa]

[Strange]

another bright sunny day at making friends and winning allies how loverly

[cerebus]

More lies, Stier. If you don't stop the lies, I would very much like to see you banned. You've already been warned for that crap at least once. You have been required to provide even a single quote in which your lying accusations are corroborated. You have never yet even attempted to do so. I won't even ask for one with this particular lie. I've made no mention of perfection of form....there's no such thing. Anyone wanting to know what my claims are can read the thread in context in which they were made. I've asked you so many times that I've lost count to stop the personal bullshit and return to on-topic discussion. In addition to that, I also asked that you not be banned even though your behavior deserved it, but you respond again with another obvious and easily verified lie. If you continue this path of deliberate and unsubstantiated lies, it's on you buddy.

What lies? He asks for a photo, how is asking for a photo a "lie"? That makes no sense to me...

[cerebus]

Chris M. said, re. Interloper: "I am the only poster to call for her fair treatment and the only one to give my word that should she make good on her offer, her information will be treated with objective impartiality." Patrick

Where was this and what was it about? I don't think I can ever think of any reason for Interloper not to have been given "fair treatment". She's a solid RSF member with worthwhile input... this whole thread has me confused, clearly I missed something...

[Chris McKinley]

cerebus,

RE: Doc....As he has many dozens of times over the last year in stalking me from thread to thread, he is asking for evidence for a claim which I did not make. This is the way he operates. He puts words in my mouth, then tries to hold me to account for them. That is exactly what has happened here yet again. I have not only made no claim of having "perfect form", I never even made reference to form in any way whatsoever. If you want to know what this crap is about, you'd have to read it in context. Some of the posts, however, have been removed by Tom and put into BTDT, so unless you knew that, you may think Doc is just asking this question for the first time about something I actually claimed. It's about information I shared in the Absolutely essential knowledge thread. This is some of the very best information I have to share, and I provided it openly and in detail. I typed it hastily and I came across as arrogant in the way I initially presented it, which Doc rightly called out, and for which I have already apologized.

Beyond that, I also made a claim, which I will still stand by, that in terms of functional fighting ability, the method I shared will "dramatically outperform the typical results found in all modern examples of traditional IMA". Typical results in functional fighting ability in modern IMA aren't exactly stellar to begin with, but I will stand by the claim without reservation. Here is the exact quote of what I said in that thread:

"I have made an extraordinary claim of superlative results with my method, no doubt about it. And not just once or twice, but consistently, over many years of application of it. I have also conveniently put it out there for anyone who cares to try it to ignore my claims and go and try it for themselves. Now, it's not 100% of the method, and what I've posted certainly doesn't include having me there in person to offer additional skills and guidance that I have in my repertoire, to be certain, but I will claim this.....anyone who accurately, systematically and consistently applies just what I have written in this thread plus the corollary information for it that I provided in Shooter's What Are You Gonna Do About It? thread will dramatically outperform the typical results found in all modern examples of traditional IMA, regardless of style, in the production of functional fighting ability with their art. It's out there now. Cut out the middle man and test it for yourselves. I wouldn't do that if I were interested exclusively in cashing in on my hard-earned expertise, or if I were only interested in maintaining a "special" status that allows me to brag without sharing. Nothing would make me happier than for people to take the work I've set down and to make my results "un-special" by duplicating or even surpassing them."

Conveniently, I have also taken myself out of the equation so that no one has to take my word for it. You don't have to come see me or pay my seminar fee to get the information. I've given it away for free to the readers of Rum Soaked Fist because I want to contribute. Nothing of my claim either requires nor would even be satisfied by a picture or a video even if I wanted to provide one. I'll also happily answer questions about the method in as much detail as I can. If somebody finds it lacking, fair enough, but at least I put it out there. If somebody actually applies it accurately, systematically and consistently over time and doesn't outperform the more typical IMA results in terms of functional fighting ability (I said nothing about form), then so be it. I honestly don't believe that will be the case, but again....at least I have put it out there. That's certainly far more than Doc could claim by a wide margin.

And you won't find me initiating either personal insults or lies, and any criticism I put forth I will happily substantiate without needing to be asked to do so. I don't mind hashing something out, even if it starts out heated, and I've already made that clear with PatrickH who started this thread, but its continued existence is unfortunate and represents poor moderation. No one should have to put up with having a thread whose sole purpose is to make personal targeted insults, no matter what anyone might think of their particular opinions on any issue.

[PatrickH]

Cerebus
Keep up.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=16473&start=15
Page 2

[nianfong]

Doc, Chris,
Honestly I have not seen any pics or vids of EITHER of you showing anything, so NEITHER of you has grounds to attack ANYONE ELSE for not doing so. Please correct me if I'm wrong. It is not necessary to share videos/pics of yourself doing things, but often, when people ask for evidence, it is difficult to maintain a constructive conversation without it. This is similar to, but not as bad as Dan (bodywork)'s problem, where he would boast about stuff and criticize other people without any evidence backing it up. In your case, you are both sharing useful information (most of the time), but then the conversation would get stalled because no more information is shared. It's totally fine if you don't want to share pics/vids, but remember that if you hold other people to that standard, you must hold yourself to it as well.

I know you guys have some kind of standing feud. Both of you, please get over it. Maybe you guys need to schedule some chat time together to work it out, or just take it to PMs. Even better, if you guys can just get some beers sometime and talk some shop in person that would be best. Any way you do it, please resolve this enmity between the two of you.

Patrick,
I understand your discontent, but this is not how you state it. Browbeating people to make them nicer usually elicits a counter-response. Instead of calling someone a "fascist dick" if you just ask people to stop being so unwelcoming, that will usually work better. It's a good thing you apologized in your response, even if it seemed somewhat halfhearted, otherwise you'd be banned now.

[nianfong]

Cerebus
Keep up.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=16473&start=15
Page 2

Patrick,
This is more of a cut at bodywork than a cut at interloper. It's clear that Dan can speak for himself. Interloper shouldn't really share the information she learned from him, if he doesn't want to share it himself.

[cerebus]

Jeez, I just read way too much, of way too many, saying way too little. My two cents goes something like this:

[Chris McKinley]

Well-spoken, cerebus.....I believe that sums it up elegantly.


Fong,

I haven't claimed anything that would demand or even be substantiated by either pics or video. I have also not demanded either from anyone. There is no "standing feud" between Doc Stier and I....all of the action is entirely 100 percent one-sided, with him following me around, trolling me, lying about me, refusing to provide even a shred of evidence to back up his accusation when called to do so, and refusing to return to on-topic discussion as well. Read the posts yourself. If you cannot be bothered to do so, then you must understand that you are operating without knowing the situation and you are necessarily artificially creating a false equivalence between our respective behaviors where none exists. I don't ever go around bothering Doc Stier.....at all. Instead, I do my own thing and post on threads where I find interest or have something to contribute. Doc has a 24-page thread right now on a topic I find out of step with my own personal beliefs, but despite the ability to do so, I have disrupted that thread exactly zero times. Doc actually thanked me for my small contribution to it. Other than that, I have left it alone. Why? Because that's how I operate. I don't ever start shit just to start shit, not in the whole ten-year history of my posting at this forum.

At this point, I don't want to resolve any enmity between Doc and myself. I tried that repeatedly in the past already, both in the forums and via PM. He has chosen to reject it. At this point, I don't want to sit down with him and drink a beer. I don't drink with people who repeatedly lie about me. I just want to be left alone by him and by his students/followers. That's it. I'm not even asking for a well-deserved public apology from him. I just want to be left alone. He will be free to post his views on those topics he wishes, and so will I. For my part, as I have demonstrated as recently as this very afternoon even with this crappy thread about me going on, I will continue to contribute specific, on-topic and helpful information and training advice to those who are interested.

I will do so, however, only if this kind of personalized nonsense is stopped here and now, and permanently. You and I are discussing this on a thread whose sole existence is to personally insult me in ways that violate the forum's clearly stated rules. Certain posters have been permanently banned for much less, and yet this thread is allowed to continue, and in fact is being joined by others who wish to get their own personal jab in at me. Once again, no poster under any circumstances should have to put up with this shit. If a poster's behavior is truly unacceptable, then the moderators should ban him. He still shouldn't be subjected to public and personal attack in a thread dedicated to doing exactly that. If you think I have done something that deserves my being banned, then by all means do so. If I have not, then neither I nor any other poster deserve this kind of crap. Do the forum a favor.....show some class and end this nonsense, including the ongoing trolling behavior of Doc Stier, once and for all and let's get back to posting constructively about the forum's actual topics.

[FirmlyRootedFist]

Seriously, we're all adults, and I'm sure most of us don't treat others with disrespect in their real life daily encounters, so why do it on the Internet? This place is great, we have the chance to share our own experiences and to also listen to others share theirs as well, and a little friendly banter aside, this kind of crap really hurts the atmosphere. And it's been going on for a while, and honestly, I don't see how it's benefitted anyone. I think both of you guys have a lot of awesome stuff to contribute, and there's no reason why you can't both continue to do so. The recent thread about brotherhood in martial arts comes to mind. We're all on the same path, so why knock each other down for coming from a difference perspective? We all have room to improve, so why not listen to each other? Anyway, just my 2 cents. Peace guys!