the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Not sure if this has been posted before -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I&feature=related

Should give anybody a pause who thinks he has superpowers (BTDT because of missing serious martial content )

HaraldH wrote:Not sure if this has been posted before -

Probably 10 years ago. This clip is ooooold

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Nevertheless, it's a great, classic clip.

Moral of the video: stupid people are stupid

It's been up several times before, but it is always a good reminder not to let theory get ahead of practice. The early part of the clip is a good illustration of lin kong jin, which clearly requires cooperation from the students. It is, doubtless, subconscious cooperation, based on willing suspension of disbelief and perhaps some teacher awe as well. It is still delusion, and it can get you embarrassed very much.

A few weeks back I was teaching some of our teenage students and I noticed that when I went to block they moved their own hand for me and I barely touched them. So like any well behaved person I took this a bit further and within one or two tries I was blocking their strike without any physical contact. I asked the students how I was doing this. I could tell from their lack of response and bewildered looks they thought that I really was moving the hand without contact. So after I had my fun I pointed out that the student was subconsciously moving it out of the way and the importance of making the attack realistic so their partner could practice a really good block. At that point it became a bit easier to understand how someone can become delusional.

very nice, Deus

Yes indeed, nice catch.

I guessed the video is not recent and must have attracted notice before ... Watching that video should be part of cautionary curriculum for all "Qi"-oriented styles

The worst is when someone who actually can fight decides to go in the direction of no touch.

HaraldH wrote:Not sure if this has been posted before

Many, many times.

(The worst is when someone who actually can fight decides to go in the direction of no touch.)

I think if you, knew more about it, worked with someone who understands it and can do it even in a limited way, or understood the basic concepts more you would think differently.. touching or not,,,the basic underlying principles are the same. weather its something useful or not,,like many things depends on ones self,,,,,

Re: "The worst is when someone who actually can fight decides to go in the direction of no touch."

In training many such things often come up and even experienced students can suddenly stop and say "that's creepy" or "how are you doing that?" [the "... for a broken down old fart" part is usually left unsaid but not always be everyone. Right Lloyd!] The longer I train the easier it is to see how such stuff could have led to the stories of old and to the legends that some teachers hide behind as a way of attracting and keeping the credulous. When you can do some of the leverage and psychological leading tricks that the modern internal arts seem full of AND have some basic martial ability then it makes it much harder for the students to realize what is happening if Teacher wants to prop his ego up or make money off of student devotion.

windwalker wrote:(The worst is when someone who actually can fight decides to go in the direction of no touch.)

I think if you, knew more about it, worked with someone who understands it and can do it even in a limited way, or understood the basic concepts more you would think differently.. touching or not,,,the basic underlying principles are the same. weather its something useful or not,,like many things depends on ones self,,,,,

I see a fundamental problem with LKJ. I doubt that learning more about it would change my present view. LKJ relies on psychological effects not physical ones. If you know this you can simply refuse to be psyched.

I agree with Klonk.

I have met people who have some no touch skills, if you want to call them that, but just as a teacher says in the video it doesn't work on everyone. But it does seem to work with willing students.

Good ,you have an open mind your opinion is based on experience

I would disagree with your conclusion, but no matter. Not here to convince or sell anything, just to suggest that the underling principles by which it works are the same ones that allow many of the things that other high level masters do when they engage with people.... I would also suggest that its not psychological entirely. but relies on theories (TCM) as of yet not really proven by western science, which only means that for the most part the theories would not be excepted by most,,

is not fighting cooperative? In that one chooses to either fight or not, more so if its a contest...related to fighting...

the idea for most seems to be if the people are evenly matched, (sport mentality) ,,which kind of negates the whole point of having different styles that rely on different types of engagements, and strategies kong jin,,,is one type of jin that exploits ideas noted by understanding the other types of jin.

the chair test is a good example of some of the ideas behind kong jin,

if one asked to sit down, and the chair is pulled out before the person can sit down there are three possibilities.(maybe more but three is enough)

1. the chair is pulled out to early
2. the chair is pulled out to late
3. the chair is pulled out just as the others awareness has confirmed the reality of the chair
at this point, it would not be possible to change the idea of sitting down, and the person would fall to the floor as the chair was no longer there.

This is one way of looking at, understanding and working with awareness directly.

Another chair test: if one picks up a chair and is going to throw it at someone.

1. the intent to throw it is to strong the other can easily move or avoid it as it is thrown
2. the intent is to late there is either no reaction or the other can preempt the action
3. the intent is correct, the other must move, or choose to ingor it and get hit either way he will get hit...by the chair

in the clip shown,,,I noted that the teacher tried to use his art,,,but failed this better then him adopting or trying to change to something that he does not do..
it didnt work for a number of reasons the main one I feel is that the teacher felt fear, and ignored his own reactions trying to prove something (ego based) instead of realing on his feeling awareness that he works with/on with those that follow his way,,,

in my own practice we work with 3 basic levels of contact

skin, hair, and air......to connect with the bone,,or frame is discouraged as this what most deal with....much better to understand how to deal with the awareness , then trying to deal with the body directly. I should note, that just to reach the level where one understands how to use the skin takes a while,,,as in yrs,,,,

I feel that most people would find that the things that they feel really work well for them use many of the same ideas...

(When you can do some of the leverage and psychological leading tricks that the modern internal arts seem full of)

and your point would be to ignore this in favor of what? The tricks as you call them work directly on and use awareness...
(full of) would this not in itself tend to point to an idea that is not based on using the body in a direct way?

anyway as this is already BDT,,,it is interesting at times,,,good to be able to look at things while allowing for different view points, and experiences..