Kiai master against MMA

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Re: Kiai master against MMA

Postby Leishen on Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:50 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRlS3fBR2k0
Here is the same clip with subtitles from bailewen.
Take a closer look of what he says and does. He speaks about attacking/catch the mind, distract the attention, about empty/kong, about xin/yi, he exhibits correct timing and lure into emptiness etc....
At the same time, confronting a teacher of this kind, with a strong neijin, shen, yi, and yes, qi, a student/opponent etc can found himself in a strange loosing situation even as a result of "just" correct timing and a strong shen among many other things of course. Not the mambo jumbo thing the poster thought though and put him as an example.
Really, do you see in this film the same thing we see from all these "ling kong jin" videos? I highly doubt...

Master Wang was a higly accomplished Taijiquan master and Daoist teacher, having achieved high level attainment in many fields of neijia/neidan. At the same time he was a very down to earth person teaching about actual combat along with true internal attainment.

You can find it entertaining, as others did, or an acting class too, if this suits you, however never forget that high level achievement can not be really measured by most of the modern day standarts since there are very few teachers if any, of that caliber alive in our times....
So someone needs to have first hand experience with that kind of teaching, so to have a correct, precise, and actuall knoweldge of what REALLY happens to him and not what it SEEMS to other people that is happening. Or else, someone else will see things from another point of view according to his level of experience and way to see things in general.

Anyway
It's to it's own I guess as everything in life.....
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Re: Kiai master against MMA

Postby windwalker on Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:26 am

(Not the mambo jumbo thing the poster thought though and put him as an example.
Really, do you see in this film the same thing we see from all these "ling kong jin" videos? I highly doubt.)

how do you know what any one sees in any video,,, or do you speak for every one...
what are mambo-jumbo things? all posted videos in the end are examples of what people can do and what their practices are based on...weather you or anyone else finds it useful or not is a choice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNZFtEDImL8 another great taiji master
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Re: Kiai master against MMA

Postby Leishen on Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:59 am

Hey windwalker

The problem is that you put this video as an example of kongjin to another user (gzregorz), when he asked you about that.
You chose master Wang's film.
how do you know what any one sees in any video,,, or do you speak for every one...

Of course I don't speak for everyone in general, however I can and will speak for my own lineage and style when there is a need, the one in the film it is, and I can tell you what it shows there, because I train this style and he was the teacher of my sifu. So you see something in this video which it is not what you think it is, if you still think that this was the answer for gzregorz' question.
It is simple.

In our family we value a lot of what we practice and was handed down to us and we are very carefull to avoid situations like this one. Don't get me wrong here, I too believe in the esoterica of the IMA, Daoism etc, and Master Wang was for sure capable of many high level or "strange" things if you like, but what you see here is not lingkongjin and he was NOT into this stuff (on the contrary), at least with the ridiculous way we see in films of this kind in our days.

And because people may find it "entertaining" or "acting", I wanted to draw that line.

At the end as I said earlier,
Or else, someone else will see things from another point of view according to his level of experience and way to see things in general.
Anyway
It's to it's own I guess as everything in life.....


Best
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Re: Kiai master against MMA

Postby windwalker on Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:20 am

(And because people may find it "entertaining" or "acting", I wanted to draw that line.)

I too was quite surprised that anyone would say something like that,,,master wang, was one of china's greats, I like the clip,,it has many gems and important points of practice.
my point as stated before was only that many things that seem to be unbelievable are based on many, many yrs of practice and understanding....my hope was that seeing a high level master show some high level skills, and talk about them some might find some understanding in how some things can be done......guess not...

anyway,,,,,there are many gems of knowledge, in that one clip from a great man.....

later
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Re: Kiai master against MMA

Postby Leishen on Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:23 am

Yes, now I can see your point.
No worries, all good.

Take care
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Re: Kiai master against MMA

Postby B_Diniz on Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:14 pm

For someone who grow up in a true TCMA environment, Mainland China, Taiwan, Chinatowns over the world and is a martial artist with some fighting and traditional (and painfully training) experience...

Did you see, something like with this kind?

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Re: Kiai master against MMA

Postby windwalker on Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:19 pm

the first question would be, can you do it?
if you can then you already know the usefulness of it.
if you can not then its really hard to understand.



its not expressed by the older teachers in this way, but it might be a good way to look at the why or how
some of these things can be done, maybe providing a more western modern view point that can be better understood.

the body/mind must be trained in a very different way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... bqsXvHZgpc
notice how the others body is affected, the back moves first, the contact point is not
compressed.

this means that the center has been affected, without affecting the frame.
the person affected tends to follow their center, and does not feel anything or just a touch.
this is different from applying a force directly to the frame to move the center.
this is only a demo of an isolated skill, how its used, and why is another type of skill.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Nov 09, 2013 5:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Kiai master against MMA

Postby B_Diniz on Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:39 pm

good points,

so, how "this means that the center has been affected, without affecting the frame. "

How to move the center, after that the back (how did you say the moves first) and then move them without the frame moving, what in logic it needs to move first or at least in the same time the center mass are moving?...

My initial intend were not to dismiss the teacher holding a coffee mug but a simple question about who are more experienced than I, and who lived in an martial environment like I explained above. I trained since my 15 and there were many tales with strange facts but was just tales nobody witnessed such facts..
y
my tks for Your explanation about how it goes, but appears you can do something like that or no? (how you stated like the first question)
Last edited by B_Diniz on Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Kiai master against MMA

Postby windwalker on Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:35 pm

my tks for Your explanation about how it goes, but appears you can do something like that or no?


yes I can do this, the taiji that I /teach/work with/ practice/ works a lot with this concept. My explanation is a possible explanation but maybe not so complete others may have a better way of looking at it. I use this to try to make it a little more understandable in a western sense. With my own students I tend to stick with the Chinese way of expressing things since most are ethnic chinese, they tend to understand the terminology that is common place in china .

First in mind, then in body....move the center first the body follows,,,understand how to move the others center, their body will tend to follow it.
If you listened to what he talked about the take away should be:

density
shape
evenness of movement
understanding where the center is the body dose not have to be:

In the case of a single rigid body, the center of mass is fixed in relation to the body, and if the body has uniform density, it will be located at the centroid. The center of mass may be located outside the physical body, as is sometimes the
case for hollow or open-shaped objects
, such as a horseshoe. In the case of a distribution of separate bodies, such as the planets of the Solar System, the center of mass may not correspond to the position of any individual member of the system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_of_mass

if one applies this line of thought to many of the things that people cant understand then some of it may become more understandable, also the context of what, why, and how it is trained follows this understanding,,,, its quite different because the gen idea is different. Not better, just different
The skill set really takes a while to develop, weather its useful or not depends on the level of development and time invested.
There are easier ways to do things.

watch how this teacher moves her student.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzYCqNnM ... re=related

what in logic it needs to move first or at least in the same time the center mass are moving?...


when the center is affected the point at which the contact is made is not the point that is affected, When the center is affected the whole body tends to move, the nervous system sensing this tends to move that part of the body below conscious feeling level. In other words one is already losing their balance but is not aware of it until to late. a lot of this depends on ones intent (yi) and weather its developed enough to be used in this way.....another long process.

with what are called external arts, they move the body directly with power derived from the frame...this too takes a lot of skill to develop but IME its a very different skill set, others may find it not.
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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