Empty force fail

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Re: Empty force fail

Postby Steve James on Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:09 am

in my hand that I held up was gun 8-) . did it stop his force, or did he stop it?


He stopped himself. Call the gun the power of fear or suggestion. If he'd wanted, even the bullet may not have stopped him.
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Re: Empty force fail

Postby klonk on Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:04 am

RobP2 wrote:
windwalker wrote:t
I have long since respected much of their work (Systema), even though from what little I've heard about it, it seems to be based on a different idea.
people talk of being warriors, fighters, ect....but when presented with a military unit that uses some of what seem to be
from my POV the same ideas its not held to the same standards as some of the work shown by the Chinese masters, why is that?


Because in Systema it isn't "empty force"

No contact work is an aspect of training - but the top guys say it is something you can rely on maybe 50% of the time. And who wants to go into battle with a gun firing 50% blanks?


Now here we are getting somewhere. In fencing, the feint sometimes works. Likewise in other martial arts. If I can elicit a response without touching you, you have been duped. A nicer way of saying it is that you have displayed an admirable sense of caution when there was no need.

The difference between a feint and lin kong jin is that a feint works because it is all in your mind, and lin kong jin...I would argue is also all in your mind. ??? The difference is that in the fencing trick I make you move your blade, a little way, in the wrong direction, but no rolling, writhing, grimacing or spasmodic behavior is involved, on your part.

In fencing there is no disconnect between the threat that is actually present and the response produced. Chasing a feint is a mistake but it is a rational and proportional mistake.
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Re: Empty force fail

Postby windwalker on Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:33 pm

RobP2 wrote:Because it is an aspect of inter-personal relationships that can be used in some situations and is an adjunct to overall combat / conflict skills. Some others seem to present is as a combat skill in and of itself - hence the OP clip


wow BTDT / that was fast, Russians must have some pull around here :-\

never addressed the org question I would have expected a little more.
the same could be said of those demos in CMA that they are an adjunct to their over all training skill set, with some teachers
specializing in these types of skill.



starting at 2:29 what kind of inter-personal relationship is being demonstrated?
at 3:41 and on what is being demonstrated?
at 4:11 he clearly is able to cause the other to be pulled back, how is this done?
aat 4:48 he did something that one of the US soldiers felt can you provide any feed back on what this might be?

my point in all of this is that there seems to be a kind of double standerd regarding events like these.
one is real, and one is not, the same arguments can be made for either one but dont seem to be
when those that practice it are asked to step up with an explanation it turns out to be
an aspect of inter-personal relationships
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Empty force fail

Postby Michael Babin on Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:07 pm

I remember watching one of the stranger youtube clips of Mikhail demonstrating on a young oriental chap who kept freezing into strange positions whenever an increasingly amused-looking Mikhail did something to him with the stick that the young fella was holding. I was watching with someone who spoke Russian [I don't] and she said that that Mikhail was saying to the watching crowd; "the young man is doing this to himself with his mind and that it could be used against a weak-willed opponent [or something like that as I saw it a couple of years back].

I think the power of suggestion is part-and-parcel of learning any fighting system to any depth and that the better practitioners who use such attributes have the physical skills to back it up... they don't rely on it exclusively or believe that they have somehow learned to transcend physics. Sadly, it also seems true that there is a large market for people looking for magic rather than martial "secrets" and the frauds can keep going despite our cynicism and the occasional "fail" video on youtube.

In this regards, Demosthenes, the Greek politician and orator was writing thousands of years ago and probably wasn't talking about Empty Farce [sic] but he apparently understood human nature in saying: "A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true."
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Re: Empty force fail

Postby Dmitri on Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:11 pm

windwalker wrote:my point in all of this is that there seems to be a kind of double standerd regarding events like these

I don't see a double-standard here; to me personally, there is no difference whatsoever, other than the color and style of clothing and presence of weapons.


"How it's done?"
At some point into the demo (above), some of the more suggestible folks enter a state where they are being controlled using the mechanisms and ideas very similar, if not identical, to those employed in hypnosis. The clip I usually post in these cases has already been posted here earlier, the 'remote punch' by Derren Brown. His second "punch" is from behind just like in the above clip. A notable difference is that he didn't train in MA, and I dare suspect that he is a lot better at this stuff than most of the LKJ/MA folks, because he is approaching the whole thing from the more appropriate/effective angle, which is... "suggestion". These guys fall for the same reason people in some baptist sermons fall, etc.

They all seem to have one thing in common -- they are willing and cooperative, or at least non-confrontational, participants in the activities at hand. When that condition stops being met, we get results like those shown toward the end of the OP clip, or in these well-known debunking/reality-testing clips:







and some others I'm sure.
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Re: Empty force fail

Postby windwalker on Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:36 pm

so in effect your saying the systema clips and teachers are faking it?

I would say not, but then i dont practice that art. Those that do practice it so far say its different.

They all seem to have one thing in common -- they are willing and cooperative, or at least non-confrontational, participants in the activities at hand. When that condition stops being met, we get results like those shown toward the end of the OP clip, or in these well-known debunking/reality-testing clips:


not here to argue prove or disprove:
in china, even with the group I practice with there is much discussions about this.

We have yet to here from the systema people who say this works 50% of the time. It would be interesting to get their view points on your thoughts.

@dmitri,

I find myself in a strange position where I'm starting do what I have asked others not to.
I have had others visit in China, they exhibited some of the same responses to things done to them.
I have worked with people in the US, helping them to build a basic foundation of
the practice. In all cases, I have asked that what ever is done or showed not be used on the net, to either prove or disprove something.

now I find myself in the same position. funny :-\

so I think I wont say to much more about this, My own feelings are that with a little work
most if not all can start to have an understanding of the basic principles involved weather its something useful for
the time investment is another story.
As a good friend of mine in HK said,," its all physics" I am beginning to see the wisdom in his words ;)
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Empty force fail

Postby klonk on Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:51 pm

Hey Windy,

I think you mistake a basic premise here. Nearly everyone is delighted to vindicate an Eastern mysterious idea. I improve my fajin by thinking about my toes. But there are some ideas that cannot be vindicated no matter how hard you try.
I define internal martial art as unusual muscle recruitment and leave it at that. If my definition is incomplete, at least it is correct so far as it goes.
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Re: Empty force fail

Postby windwalker on Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:54 pm

that they have somehow learned to transcend physics

physics again :-\

wow, you practice taiji,

can you talk about the center, what is it ?
how to join with it?
can it be outside or inside the body?

its physical or mental ?

how is this related to the six harmonies, 5 bows, upper and lower dantien.
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Re: Empty force fail

Postby klonk on Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:58 pm

I define internal martial art as unusual muscle recruitment and leave it at that. If my definition is incomplete, at least it is correct so far as it goes.
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Re: Empty force fail

Postby Bao on Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:08 am

Great clip Klonk, thank you very much for sharing! :)
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Re: Empty force fail

Postby windwalker on Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:39 am

Dmitri wrote:
windwalker wrote:my point in all of this is that there seems to be a kind of double standerd regarding events like these

I don't see a double-standard here; to me personally, there is no difference whatsoever, other than the color and style of clothing and presence of weapons.


no double standard

yep lets review

1.it is said to work 50% of the time according to those who have spoken to leading exponents
2.some complain about wording used to describing what appear to be the same events happening.
3.those that train it, or work with the style say its a personnel relationship thing
4. no one mocking or asking:
but why does EVERYONE with verifiable combat experience in combat sports, ie people able to deal with trained powerful opponents with the best punches, kicks, lock and throws etc. out there, why do they ALL call this type of sh1t you present fake? Is the world all crazy except you? Find me one single fighter with verifiable experience (not hear-say) that endorses what is proposed on those videos?


8 pages 3800 views not sent to BTDT yep I dont see a double standard do you?

non of the commentators have yet to comment instead some suggest the water trick, but not with the systema, hey I understand worried about getting shot or something,
better to do it with guys who dont play with guns who appear to be doing the same things.
they call it something different so its ok ;)

much respect for the teachers and system of systema as presented, I have always felt that a lot of their training and ideas
accord with my own and things I've experienced work on and with.

@ dmitri: You publicly presented your view point with reasoned logical thought much respect for this,
I dont agree with it this is ok, we have different experiences. ;) .
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Empty force fail

Postby Steve James on Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:04 am

klonk wrote:


Forget fencing. The advice is priceless in general, even for the internet.

Frankly, it shouldn't be in btdt or mixed up with empty force.
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Re: Empty force fail

Postby Tom on Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:44 pm

Makes me wonder what the outcome would be if two of these LKJ masters encountered each other.

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Re: Empty force fail

Postby windwalker on Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:58 pm

saw that clip awhile back. its funny , one should take the time to read some of the bios of the teachers in the clip you posted.
at least they dont play with guns :o ,,,(guns, they get respect) notice how its all Asian martial arts.

Last edited by windwalker on Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Empty force fail

Postby Tom on Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:27 am

I did check out the bios of the LKJ teachers on that clip. That's why I asked the question . . . I wonder what would happen if two of them encountered each other, i.e., what their reactions would be in an exchange of skill demonstration. Behind closed doors if egos demand it (although they make their student demonstrations very public).
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