Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

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Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:15 am

So today I met a new Taiji teacher that has been all over China and was telling me about special attributes that separate it from other martial arts. I felt that I could get away with asking him about a very divisive topic that comes up on these forums. Yes, I went there. -twisted-

The teacher in question then told me that he'd give me an example. He suddenly attacked me without notice and I moved my head out of the way, flinching, though he never touched me. In my defence, he was very fast for an old man! This, he said, was Linkongjin in simple terms. He was controlling my body's reaction without making contact. It reminded me of something my teacher said yesterday.

There is an expression; "Bei dong bian zhu dong". For example, you pull someone towards you and their back foot comes along with them. As the foot is coming you knee them below their knee (this happened to me and it hurts!). So you took their body's natural reaction and used it against them.

Linkongjin is like that, but without touching them. I think that projecting your intention at someone with some movement of your body can certainly cause a reaction in them, perhaps to your benefit. Fear can enhance that effect.

I then asked him about those videos where someone waves their hands and a person starts spazzing all over the place. He told me that he believes that somewhere out there there may be masters with amazing abilities, but that he has never seen or felt anything like in those videos in thirty years of traveling and studying around the country in various styles of Taijiquan, Yongchunquan, Baguazhang etc. He's willing to keep an open mind, however. He said that there is an incredible amount of skilled masters left in China and that a large percentage of them don't publicly teach. Most of them are in their sixties or older. If any of you want to study in China I'd do so sooner than later.
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

Postby middleway on Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:24 am

I have said this for many years to my guys ... most obviously demonstrated when you raise your foot to their balls .. the no touch reaction can be dramatic...

However I don't think this is what is happening in the majority of cases where LKJ is shown. Those are instances of mind manipulation, suggestion over time and general douche baggery on the part of the teachers.
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Re: Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

Postby seven on Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:57 am

2 or 3 years ago I was at a William CC Chen workshop. He was showing us some push hands stuff, and he had me put two hands on his chest to give him a shove. He put his 2 hands on my shoulders/upper arms and I went into the air, both feet off the ground. I didn't feel him pushing me at all. Thinking back on it in the moments after it happened, I felt like the force that projected me into the air was my own legs jumping. But I had no intention of jumping, no idea what he was going to do, let alone having a plan to show off a trick demonstration. It wasn't like some sci-fi chi blast, but it wasn't normal either. If you had watched it on a video, you might have said it was fake because I was jumping. But something he did made me jump against my will. He was explaining it in terms of the "fall asleep/wake up" dynamic of his form, but I still don't quite get it.
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Re: Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

Postby RobP2 on Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:08 am

MaartenSFS wrote:So today I met a new Taiji teacher that has been all over China and was telling me about special attributes that separate it from other martial arts. I felt that I could get away with asking him about a very divisive topic that comes up on these forums. Yes, I went there. -twisted-

The teacher in question then told me that he'd give me an example. He suddenly attacked me without notice and I moved my head out of the way, flinching, though he never touched me. In my defence, he was very fast for an old man! This, he said, was Linkongjin in simple terms. He was controlling my body's reaction without making contact. It reminded me of something my teacher said yesterday.



That's pretty much how the Russian / Systema guys describe it, which is maybe why they don't call it empty "force". The top guys have it down to a fine art, on many levels.
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Re: Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

Postby windwalker on Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:39 pm

Linkongjin is like that, but without touching them. I think that projecting your intention at someone with some movement of your body can certainly cause a reaction in them, perhaps to your benefit. Fear can enhance that effect.


In my experience of studying and working with those who can do it for over 10yrs in china,
I would not agree with its like that.

That's pretty much how the Russian / Systema guys describe it, which is maybe why they don't call it empty "force". The top guys have it down to a fine art, on many levels.
::)

been through this before havent we? 8-)
at that time you chose not to say or share much and now
"its the same way as the Russian/ Systema guys describe it"
wow :-\

If there are any questions for those interested I will share some experiences and thoughts on it.
I have some small ability in this area, which is a small part of a much lager dynamic of why many things work in much of the many videos that people question or are misunderstood. its not something that one can get directly, nor be sought for.
It will tend to develop naturally if one follows the rather simple idea of "dont use the force"

the first question that one should ask themselves is weather they understand what qi is,
I dont mean this in a intellect sense. If not most of it will not make much sense and other things start to be used to explain something that for the most part most can not do.

kong jin

the word jin, in chinese in this sense does not mean force as in the English language sense of the word. pursuing this line of thought IME is a waste of time.
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Re: Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

Postby windwalker on Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:43 pm

It wasn't like some sci-fi chi blast, but it wasn't normal either. If you had watched it on a video, you might have said it was fake because I was jumping. But something he did made me jump against my will. He was explaining it in terms of the "fall asleep/wake up" dynamic of his form, but I still don't quite get it.


as with many things its not real, until it is real.
you where jumping, as in a reaction to what another part of you felt. that he was able to wake up.
for you this part is asleep. 8-)
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Re: Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

Postby amor on Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:38 pm

windwalker wrote:[
In my experience of studying and working with those who can do it for over 10yrs in china,
I would not agree with its like that.


been through this before havent we? 8-)
at that time you chose not to say or share much and now
"its the same way as the Russian/ Systema guys describe it"
wow :-\

If there are any questions for those interested I will share some experiences and thoughts on it.
I have some small ability in this area, which is a small part of a much lager dynamic of why many things work in much of the many videos that people question or are misunderstood. its not something that one can get directly, nor be sought for.
It will tend to develop naturally if one follows the rather simple idea of "dont use the force"

the first question that one should ask themselves is weather they understand what qi is,
I dont mean this in a intellect sense. If not most of it will not make much sense and other things start to be used to explain something that for the most part most can not do.

kong jin

the word jin, in chinese in this sense does not mean force as in the English language sense of the word. pursuing this line of thought IME is a waste of time.



Hey, would be interested in your thoughts and experiences on the LKJ and your understanding of qi in the non-intellectual sense. Also, you stated jin does does not mean force so any thoughts/ideas to convey the true meaning of this chinese word?
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Re: Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

Postby windwalker on Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:18 pm

the word jin, in chinese in this sense does not mean force as in the English language sense of the word. pursuing this line of thought IME is a waste of time.


Also, you stated jin does does not mean force so any thoughts/ideas to convey the true meaning of this chinese word?


I stated it was a waste of time because thinking of it in this way tends to lead one to seek something that can be measured in a scientific sense, , I also mentioned that what is called qi
should be something which one knows. With out this background this much of any type of talking on it would tend to be pointless.
those who have the back ground probably already understand much of the what, how and why.
it would be more sensible to see if what is happening follows what is commonly said, and thought

He suddenly attacked me without notice and I moved my head out of the way, flinching, though he never touched me. In my defence, he was very fast for an old man! This, he said, was Linkongjin in simple terms. He was controlling my body's reaction without making contact. It reminded me of something my teacher said yesterday

that is called startle response
The startle response or startle reaction is a response to sudden, startling stimuli, such as sudden noise or sharp movement. Usually the onset of the startle response is reflectory. The startle reflex is a brainstem reflectory reaction that serves to protect the back of the neck (whole-body startle), or the eye (eyeblink), and also facilitates escape from sudden stimuli. It is found across the lifespan and in many species. An individual's emotional state may lead to a variety of different responses.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Startle_response

its very different then what is being shown here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu99GRUUN6Y
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Re: Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

Postby D_Glenn on Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:43 pm

windwalker wrote:its very different then what is being shown here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu99GRUUN6Y

That was filmed in 1992/93 and the American guy in the clip had told me that it was definitely not 'Lin Kong Jin' that they were learning. It was a type of two person 'daoyin'. There was also a lot of 'Giving Face' to the teacher Shi Ming. He said it was unfortunate that a lot of the interview was edited out as it was made clear that this was more health related and everyone there was willingly going along and fully compliant, because after the show aired, people were flocking to see Shi Ming and the cult that formed around him became more like a circus side show.

What Maarten described is 'Lin Kong Jin'.

.
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Re: Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:49 am

Sorry, I can't watch Youtube at the moment. Regardless of whether the "other Linkongjin" exists or not, "this Linkongjin" is a real thing that everyone can agree on. Perhaps it would be a good place to start from to try explaining " advanced LKJ".
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Re: Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

Postby UniTaichi on Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:49 am

There is another translation for 凌空勁 which is Spatial Force. Spatial relates to space and the position, size, shape of the things in it. Maybe those who want to know if it is indeed face giving and all the other excuses can look up Shi Ming disciple and try for themselves. But make sure you take a video of it. ;D

Here is a youtube video of his disciple ;

http://youtu.be/qZ_nqM1qH7w

And btw D-Glenn , Concept is Gainian. Not Yinian. ;)

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Re: Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

Postby RobP2 on Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:55 am

MaartenSFS wrote:Sorry, I can't watch Youtube at the moment. Regardless of whether the "other Linkongjin" exists or not, "this Linkongjin" is a real thing that everyone can agree on. Perhaps it would be a good place to start from to try explaining " advanced LKJ".


Perhaps a starting point would be - do you believe that a person can admit some sort of invisible force from their body which can physically affect another person without contact? If it can affect a person can it also affect an object, or perhaps an animal?
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Re: Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

Postby Steve James on Sun Apr 13, 2014 6:17 am

There needs to be a way to distinguish cause from effect.
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Re: Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:32 am

RobP2 wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:Sorry, I can't watch Youtube at the moment. Regardless of whether the "other Linkongjin" exists or not, "this Linkongjin" is a real thing that everyone can agree on. Perhaps it would be a good place to start from to try explaining " advanced LKJ".


Perhaps a starting point would be - do you believe that a person can admit some sort of invisible force from their body which can physically affect another person without contact? If it can affect a person can it also affect an object, or perhaps an animal?


Since I've never seen or experienced it myself, me believing in it would not prove or disprove its existence. Belief in something does not make it true.
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Re: Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

Postby windwalker on Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:02 am

D_Glenn wrote:
windwalker wrote:its very different then what is being shown here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu99GRUUN6Y

That was filmed in 1992/93 and the American guy in the clip had told me that it was definitely not 'Lin Kong Jin' that they were learning. It was a type of two person 'daoyin'. There was also a lot of 'Giving Face' to the teacher Shi Ming. He said it was unfortunate that a lot of the interview was edited out as it was made clear that this was more health related and everyone there was willingly going along and fully compliant, because after the show aired, people were flocking to see Shi Ming and the cult that formed around him became more like a circus side show.

What Maarten described is 'Lin Kong Jin'.




sorry what "marrten" describes is not. Anyone could do or cause the reaction he experienced.
maybe you might want to get with the people who titled the clip or the others that show the same things. 8-)



both demos seem to be the same and accord with what I have felt and experienced.
they are demos, with the teacher demoing something to illustrate a point.

I should mention that I had maintained a practice of asking those that I've met or who have met my teacher not to mention things on line. As it would tend to interfere with the practice,
my own teacher kept a policy of remaining low key
never sought or seeking to be known. he is 93 now,

I once asked him about this he said "I could be famous if I wanted to, many would come but some would come to discredit, others out of curiosity, and others to learn, in the end it would tend to disrupt the practice so I remain quite and practice"

the chinese sometimes would stop by and ask him " is this real" he would tell them "no its fake, they are faking it" they would laugh, he would smile and then we would go back to practice.

I've decided to share a few things at this point. in light of this thread as long as it remains a discourse that seeks to clarify possible explanations, or suggest why.

if it starts to become a proving, or its BS, or what ever really not interested in having to validate anything on line.


had some friends stop by in china one time, one a long time taiji teacher the other his student.
after watching some of the practice and playing with the students they asked if he would do it on them.

he had the teacher stand some 12 feet away, and caused him to be pulled forward, he did the same with the student, the student felt sick which tends to be a side effect. in this case he was only useing a little bit of what he can do.

in the beginning I too used to feel sickness from the effect, I had asked him about it, he said " he causes the qi to either stop or run back wards" after a couple of more yrs, I stopped feeling sick, also stopped wondering about my own reactions to it.

I have stressed that weather touched or not the process is the same, many of the video clips in question on some of the other threads shows the same reactions same things happening all of which accords with my own experiences.

its part of a larger dynamic that leads to a different out look and usage and tends to give one an advantage provided that they really can understand the nature of it.

the cause and effect, as steve, mentioned would better to be examined in light of the theory by which the practice is explained and based on, and see if it tends to follow what is said.

the point of some trying to explain using other methods or theories, IMO kind of pointless on less they have first hand experience and is something that they have been working on.

it starts with the idea and reality of qi. If this basic point is not in ones own relaity much of what is said or explained wont make sense, although a lot of it can be explained using physics, there some things physics will tend to have to have ie, some type of "force" that for the most part has yet to be validated in western science.

In this sense, the systema (Russian ma) might have a model that is more acceptably to western sensibilities.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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