Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

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Re: Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

Postby windwalker on Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:54 am

inventors of Taijiquan and they believe it is utter nonsense.

ok lets do this the easy way.

prove that they are the inventors of taijiquan?
and then we can talk about the rest of your delusions 8-)
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

Postby Steve James on Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:16 am

Ehm, when we talk about force in martial arts, we do not talk about force of physics - a straight jab into face of my opponent is not any of those four forces you mentioned, I guess. But I admit I do not understand physics, so please tell me - is the straight jab gravity, electromagnetic or nuclear force?


Damn, that's a great question. First, a straight jab includes and requires all of the four "forces." To lift your arm, it is absolutely necessary to overcome the force of gravity. That comes to the critical term. In order to overcome gravity, it is necessary to generate "energy" --which, in physics is not the same as "force." The technical difference can be googled easily. The important point is that we're talking about the "energy" we as martial artists use to apply our techniques ("work").

The weak and strong nuclear forces are inherent in our atoms. Electromagnetic force is absolutely necessary for our nervous system to command our muscles. We have to overcome gravity in order to stand. So, imo, people are claiming that there is some form of energy that can be used to manipulate the four forces. However, many people scoff at the claim that such energy can overcome those forces, such as gravity. Note: it is clearly possible to overcome gravity; the question is whether it is possible to do so in ways that can't be explained.

Back to the jab. It's easy to show how one can be stopped using "energy." An easy test is simply to ask someone to demonstrate how they'd stop a punch in the nose Without Using the 4 forces: i.e., use force at a distance without moving. :)
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Re: Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

Postby windwalker on Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:43 am

all one needs to overcome or change is the intent of the action.
if one attempts to deal with the physical action itself then for the most part its already to late.

as in some of the other threads, when people talk of yi, and shen, these aspects are very real and can be used
by those that have come to a point in their training where they are understood and used. for most IMO they really never get to this point as was pointed out in one of "d-glenns", threads they remain at a level of understanding and usage that works for them.

which IMO, is ok,,,what I often fail to understand is the limitations that some seem to impose on processes that they work with all the time.

all speak of centers, but never apparently really consider what is a center, how does it interact/join with another s center ect.
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Re: Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

Postby amor on Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:56 am

windwalker wrote:
you would, if you worked with the basic ideas from which it arises from.
as I've mentioned many times the way its demoed is not really the way in which its used
the same ideas are at work weather one is touched or not....


ok, I'll try to keep it in the back of my head what you mentioned about using this type of force in that what we're seeing is only for demonstration purposes; and if the teacher decided to use more force then the student could get seriously hurt. Any ideas on how it would really be used, by the way?

I recall you've oft quoted some of Mr Gim's quotes over at nytaichi to some of the doubters. Here's an interesting one from him:

How can we explain the phenomena of Tai Chi Chuan in scientific manner?...if two of my students who are doctors in physics, one has Ph D in String Theory Physics, and the other one, Ph D in Nuclear Physics, cannot explain, having trained with me near 10 years...also a student who has Ph D in Electrical Engineering...then, how can you who have an average understanding of physics can actually understand the depth of Tai Chi Chuan knowledge? As my students have said, the science is still a bit too young to know what goes on in Tai Chi Chuan...


People are fond of trying to explain many of the feats we see using up to date laws of physics but is there anything that you have encountered in your experience that can not be explained by the laws of physics?
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Re: Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:17 am

So, I finally asked my teacher about it today and he said this:

There are three kinds of ways to affect your opponent and get a fliching-like response that looks like they are flying away or jumping.

1) The startle response that we've mentioned before. It works better if the training partner is conditioned to fear what's coming.

2) If they are very tense and you suddenly Fajin. This works best for a Qinna Fajin combination. If they relax their muscles and joints this reaction isn't likely to happen. Number one may also play a role, especially where pain is concerned. If the wrist and elbow are tense and straightened, for example, a simple push will cause them to fly back. Now add a twist or other pain to it and the effect is greater.

3) The third is where the teacher is very high level and can do number two with even the slighest touch and almost no discernible outer movement. My teacher said that he experienced it once and it seemed almost supernatural.

He said that Linkongjin is utter bullshit and that some woman named Yan Something (I forgot the second character) was a good example of a charlatan. Most of these people say that they won't film it but that you can come see it in person. You must pay ten thousand before you can even see it to judge whether it is real or not. Thus it is a form of mind control and even seemingly educated people have been caught up in these cults. Taijiquan cannot go against the laws of nature, he emphasised.

I'll ask around a bit more to see if any other teachers have an opinion on the matter. I'm glad to hear that my teacher believes in almost superhuman skill but not in the supernatural. He said that he'd be interested in experiencing it if someone that claimed they had this skill was willing to try it on him, though. :)
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Re: Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

Postby D_Glenn on Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:38 am

^ Sounds about right.
There's a video of Wang Peisheng that keeps getting lumped in with all the other LKJ crap. There used to be students/ grand-students of his who posted on here but they got so pissed about 2 years ago because windwalker kept comparing him to other people showing supernatural stuff, same as he's doing now, a week ago, 2 weeks ago, a month ago,...

My Grand-teacher was friends with WPS and we kind of got some of the story about that event and video filmed from WPS, and I posted as much as I can remember about it, but if memory serves, my grand-teacher said to Wang, at the time, that in the future the video will only be used to help support the frauds and charlatans, which is exactly how it's being used now.

:(

.
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Re: Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

Postby windwalker on Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:00 am

Everything I said about Neigong and training methods is all wrong. I have been so utterly convinced that the opposite is true that I withdraw all of my former opinions on the matter.


how soon we forget. ::)

what it amounts to is that for things he can do, its true and things he can not it's not.
but its all based on the same ideas.

My Grand-teacher was friends with WPS and we kind of got some of the story about that event and video filmed from WPS, and I posted as much as I can remember about it, but if memory serves, my grand-teacher said to Wang, at the time, that in the future the video will only be used to help support the frauds and charlatans, which is exactly how it's being used now.


sure thats what he said ::)
teacher wangs son does and shows the same things happening so he too must be a fraud?

my teacher said, my grand teacher said. ::)

we have some of teacher wangs students who directly trained with him come to train, they seem to get that the process is just a small part of a larger process by which the practice is based on, kong jin, is not the main point more of by product of the over all practice.

regardless, I would have thought that a first hand perspective might have been useful, guess not.
the OP is on a path of reduction reducing it to the limits of his teacher abilities and knowledge.
the same teacher who apparently he would have doubted had he not met him before,
yep makes sense 8-)
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Re: Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

Postby windwalker on Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:10 am

Taijiquan cannot go against the laws of nature, he emphasised.


lets start from the fact that "nature" has no laws,,, humankind assign observations
to things, that can and do change over time as more is understood.

if your teacher mentions "qi" for example ask him to prove it in a way that would be
acceptably to western science.
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Re: Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:38 am

Like I said before, I am learning things now that I would have doubted just a month ago - stuff that blew my mind - but I have my limits. It's not because my teacher can't do it, but because it just doesn't make sense AND the videos look so utterly ridiculous. That being said, if I ever meet someone that can use LKJ on me I will re-recant (or, if practical, secretly begin learning and keep it all to myself Mwhahahah!!!). I think that's about the best you can expect from a healthy skeptic like me. :)

So far, my teacher hasn't gone in-depth about Qi, but all of the teachers that I have come accross, regardless of style, all believe in it fully. I'm sure that he will explain it in a way that will make perfect sense, whether in language or use.
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Re: Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

Postby D_Glenn on Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:46 am

From 2012 thread: http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php? ... a&start=15
Leishen wrote:
windwalker wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf0DNMElas8

If I remember you once mentioned that you practiced wu style? your right,,,lets let the dogs sleep....


Since I train in this lineage, the Teacher of my teacher doesn't demonstrate what you think it is.
The last thing master Wang Peisheng would show in a video is ling kong jing things.....
He is\was one of the most respected teachers, one of the last of his kind, so it makes me very sad that you post his clip as an example for ling kong jin :( .
What you show in it, it may be many other things, not what you think it is though.


***
from 2011 - http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php? ... 0&start=30
Wuyizidi wrote:That's a very interesting book. As it turns out Mr. Amdur is from Pittsburgh originally, and when he visited 1-2 years ago, he met with my teacher (Zhang Yun). Later when the book came out, I told my teacher about one of its main points: Daito-ryu as Ueshiba's teacher practiced it, had similar internal skills found in Chinese internal martial arts, that it was passed down to Ueshbia and very few others, but it's mostly lost today in Aikido, that they need to recover it by learning it from Chinese martial arts. To which my teacher responded "that's great for Aikido people, but we're in danger of losing those ourselves, where can we go to recover it?!"

It's sad but true, take an average person to see a large random sample of Taiji schools, and they'll think it look just as 'fake' as modern Aikido.

One thing interesting about this fakeness though, it's actually a key indicator that this was originally a very good lineage. In Taiji Quan there's an old adage, "good Taiji Quan looks like magic (fake trick)". The bystanders, without touching the person executing the skill, couldn't even understand why the other guy cannot fight back. When my oldest brother Strider came home from China, he showed to his grandfather tape of himself sparring with Master Wang Peisheng. His grandfather was a real boxing insider: professional boxer and trainer. And his grandfather became frustrated and angry watching it "hey, right there, he's grabbing your front hand, and he's going through this winding motion to strike your neck with the other hand. Why didn't you just punch him with your free hand, you had all this time! And why did you fall before his striking hand reach you, and falling forward sideways instead of backwards, what is going on, is this some type of trick?! Are you trying to humor him?"

Strider has to explain to him "the hand that's grabbing mine, I felt like his entire weight is on it, I was losing balance. It may be a long time in real time, by when you're losing balance, you get really tense, you're not aware of time, you're only thinking of recovering. And the reason I fall is not he has some invisible force coming out of his striking hand, but because his two hands are perfectly connected, the downward force of the striking hand is transmitted completely to the hand holding mine. So before that striking hand reached me, that force (unseen in the other hand) already threw me down..."

You can see how anyone who had felt good Tongbei or Taiji can easily understand what is going on here, but if you haven't, how could you know? This is why you never seen external martial art people faking Ling Kong Jin (the above example is not Ling Kong Jin). Only when someone in a group, someone who is a real internal arts master and done this regularly, do his students even know this kind of thing is even possible. So that they would try to replicate it in their own practice. Of course if you don't have the skill, it's just mutual deception. What you have left is empty external movement which, without the necessary internal force (in example above), couldn't possibly produce the strange effects that baffles non-practitioners. Obviously if that's all Ueshiba had, Aikido wouldn't be famous in the first place. That kind of fake skill even an untrained person can defeat.


Windwalker, of course you will probably cut portions out these quotes, then use them out context in other threads (same as you've been doing with mine), and post it along with some video of Henry or Bian, and the cycle will just continue. This is been going on for almost 2 years now. You haven't gotten the response you wanted, and you're probably not going to.

What's the word for doing something over and over again but expecting a different result each time? Insanity?

.


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Re: Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

Postby suckinlhbf on Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:23 am

I once met a TJQ master in a park. He waved his hand and pointed his fingers to his student 15 feet away, and made them flipped and rolled on the ground. I got to know him after watching him for several weeks. He told me it was LKJ. I requested to try. He pointed his finger at me two feet away and moved his finger forward. I did not move, and he said I was not relaxing enough to feel his LKJ.
Another encounter was with a student of Yiquan Wang XiangZhai. He put his hand on my chest and flew me 10 feet away. The touch was so light that felt like I was blown away by wind. I asked him was there any LKJ. He said no. I followed with another question that did Wang XiangZhai mention anytime on LKJ. He laughed and said nothing.
A friend of mind was a bodyguard of Taiwan President Chiang Ching Kuo. He is one of the best TJQ masters I have even met. He told me his teacher once taught a class in Taiwan on LKJ. A few of them got it out of a class of a few hundreds. Too bad, he is not one of them. They later realized that those could got LKJ were all already in other martial art styles and they were either style holder or lineage holders with their life time spent on practicing.
The videos kind of tell me something but I am still skeptical and searching.
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Re: Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

Postby Ron Panunto on Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:40 pm

windwalker wrote:
inventors of Taijiquan and they believe it is utter nonsense.

ok lets do this the easy way.

prove that they are the inventors of taijiquan?
and then we can talk about the rest of your delusions 8-)


Oh, OK. Your the type that believes it was developed a 1,000 years ago by a Taoist sage watching a stork and a snake fight. It figures.
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Re: Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

Postby Ron Panunto on Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:58 pm

windwalker wrote:
Taijiquan cannot go against the laws of nature, he emphasised.


lets start from the fact that "nature" has no laws,,, humankind assign observations
to things, that can and do change over time as more is understood.

if your teacher mentions "qi" for example ask him to prove it in a way that would be
acceptably to western science.


Nature does indeed have laws. If not, none of us would be here. We could not have evolved if the universe had no laws. In fact, the laws are so rigid that they can be completely described by mathematical equations. As we observe more we fine tune our math for a more accurate description of the laws. The laws, however, never change, just our understanding of them. These laws are described by the four known forces as listed earlier.
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Re: Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

Postby Dmitri on Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:00 pm

Darn it, and there I thought we could have a LKJ thread without it going to BTDT... ;D

But it is indeed so BTDT, at least on RSF... Been all discussed to death. Points been made back and forth, some validity to these training methods (not attacks against non-cooperative opponents, unless someone's claiming they can indeed send uncooperative strangers flying through air without touching them, as means of self-defense, which IMHO is utter BS**) have been acknowledged, at least by some; these folks seem to be able to demonstrate excellent sensitivity levels. However, something to consider -- when a larger fish catches a smaller fish, it's not because of lack of sensitivity of the small fish. ;)

Anyway...

Maybe one day I get to meet/touch hands with windwalker and he'd prove me wrong... I almost wish it were true, because it would just be so unbelievably cool. I'm just not holding my breath that it'll be that way. Respect to his training though, for sure.

For what very little it's worth.

D_Glenn wrote:What's the word for doing something over and over again but expecting a different result each time? Insanity?

I can see windwalker stopping posting again, because this sentiment is a usual result when he gets carried away with the favorite subject. :)
He's clearly not insane, otherwise (I would hope?) you wouldn't be counter-arguing these same things again, no? Your statement could be turned right around...

Anyway, enjoy while it lasts guys. I have a feeling BTDT is awaiting this thread... -devil- ;D

** unless you're at Derren Brown's level, in which case it will work on a very small percentage of suggestible folks -- i.e. impractical in terms of self-defense anyway.
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Re: Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

Postby windwalker on Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:45 pm

Last month, in the journal Anesthesia and Analgesia, two leading medical rationalists, pharmacologist David Colquhoun and neurologist Steven Novella, stuck in the knife: "the benefits of acupuncture are likely nonexistent, or at best are too small and too transient to be of any clinical significance," they wrote. "It seems that acupuncture is little or no more than a theatrical placebo."


Colquhoun believes that, according to the usual standards of medicine, acupuncture doesn't work. "Every paper on acupuncture seems to conclude that 'more research is needed'," he says. "If you can't come to a clear decision after 3,000 trials then surely that tells you something. One thing is clear: there is little or no difference between sham and real acupuncture."

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013 ... ective-nhs


how many here would agree with this article? :-\

FWIW: I only posted sharing something that I have some experience in, and have been working
with for the past 10yrs or so, not to prove or disprove or validate. Only to share some first hand account and thoughts.
d_glenn, has posted many interesting post on qi, and qi theory and then seeks to limit them to his experience and understanding. which if one thinks about it, the very nature of qi itself has not been scientifically proven.
and yet I guess, we are I guess expected to limit are selves to someones interpretation and translations. ::)

in the last 10yrs I have been in contact with some posters like "Wuyizidi" and others. its not about me, my teacher or others that I know. the topic should be about the principles by which something could work, or a clarification of what did one feel or how is it used. instead it gets down to "my teacher said, or grand teacher said" interrupting video clips, mocking those with many yrs of experience shown in the clips ect........

the method and principles by which it works, or could work for the "skeptics" are in my experience merely extensions of what many here would say they do or feel that they do, this always puzzles me why many never make this connection.

Even the OP found something in his new teacher that he would not have accepted before, and yet now its real.....he then allows his new teacher to again shape his reality by telling him what is real and what is not. :o seems like one would learn that there are things that might be, and keep an open mind.

the OP attempted to explain something in a way that was not consistent with my experiences nor views.
my responses in trying share a different view point based on experience. others, then seek to confirm the OP views citing a teacher that cant do it, with another teachers views who also cant do it


any way, peace out

my last words on this.
yi, qi, shen,,,,
its all theory until one meets others who can put it to use 8-)
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