the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Nature does indeed have laws

can you post some of the laws that "nature" wrote

my last words on this.
yi, qi, shen,,,,
its all theory until one meets others who can put it to use

Even not in the context of LKJ, Fajin is the combination of Yi, Qi, Shen. And, those are the big three words to know.

Can we just discuss "what we can do LKJ in person" instead of whether someone else can do LKJ or not?

If you

- can do LKJ, put up a clip and prove it.
- can't do LKJ, just say, "I can't do LKJ".

Let me be the 1st person to say this, "I can't do LKJ".

I finally got around to looking at some of those clips... They helped to further solidify my stance on the matter.

I can LKG my cat,



from time to time.
but,
Im workin` to make it always,
video will be next

windwalker wrote:

Nature does indeed have laws

can you post some of the laws that "nature" wrote

Nature doesn't "write" laws, but instead evolved into what we have today, which are the four known forces (gravity, electromagnetic, strong nuclear and weak nuclear) all transmitted through boson/fermion interactions. This is what our universe evolved into following the big bang and the inflationary period. Other universes, if they exist, may have evolved differently.

I don't believe in empty force after decades of training and studying with as well as meeting many Yang-style taiji and other martial instructors.

I do believe that many people want to believe in it.

I do believe that some of the training manifestations of leading a person's attention and using deep skill against the less-experienced and skillful will appear to have "magical" results in a training context. I can do some of them on my own students or the credulous but I always explain what is happening to them as I do so though it is funny [in all senses of the word] that the same "magic" will still work on some of them afterwards unless they make a real conscious effort to fight their tendencies to go along with my "leading" of them.

I don't let them confuse ANY aspect of training with struggling with a skilled opponent or even someone with less skill who really wants your blood.

I do miss the sense of mystery I had 25 years ago when I started to really understand what's going on in the modern taiji world. I don't regret the pain, sweat and bruises that taught me to give up looking for nonsense answers to the simple question. "Who do I want to be with in a dark alley when the baddies show their faces... someone like David Blainie or someone like Tim Cartmell?"

I believe in LKJ (the non startle reflex type) but I dont think its a big deal imo. It's not always applicable in a fighting scenario against a psycho or multiple attackers and can drain your energies considerably so not very economical. I'm sure there is a better way to end a fight brutally and cleanly but this isn't it.

wiesiek wrote:I can LKG my cat,



from time to time.
but,
Im workin` to make it always,
video will be next

I can do cats, birds, squirrels and the occasional fox

Windwalker.

I don't for one minute doubt your experiences with LKJ. I am skeptical about all things until I have first hand experience with it, I have had none with LKJ so i remain a skeptic / none believer until I have.

That being said from what you have written so far I am curious as to what you see as the benefits / usefulness of this practice. You have written about people feeling nauseous and then we have heard about how people can be made to stumble a little and perhaps fall over. Are there any health benefits from the practice ? any healing ? For me this would seem a more worthwhile pursuit and use of time.

Mr_Wood wrote:Windwalker.

I don't for one minute doubt your experiences with LKJ. I am skeptical about all things until I have first hand experience with it, I have had none with LKJ so i remain a skeptic / none believer until I have.

That being said from what you have written so far I am curious as to what you see as the benefits / usefulness of this practice. You have written about people feeling nauseous and then we have heard about how people can be made to stumble a little and perhaps fall over. Are there any health benefits from the practice ? any healing ? For me this would seem a more worthwhile pursuit and use of time.

its good to be skeptical but still keep an open mind.
the practice itself tends to force one to have another outlook that would not otherwise be adopted.
for example if some one says not to use force, and then is able to do somthing from a distance there can be no doubt about what not using force means.
I have stressed all through this topic its really only part of a larger dynamic of movement. weather touched or not the process is the same.
In attempting to offer an explanation based on my present thoughts and experiences using some of the more learned people postings who post here
as a way of tying in what I felt and feel is happening. it didnt work out to well

in answer to your question, my own teacher at 93, does little healing work now.
in his earlier yrs, many people used to come to him for tui na, so many I am told that they used to sleep outside waiting for him to help them.

some one asked if I expected something different.
in a way yes,,,I did.


but then again, in china with the group I practice with many are from other CMA styles with many yrs of practice.
they stay because what they feel is so different they seek to understand and acquire some skill.

the teacher is not one for explaining things, preferring a hands on feel it type of approach
the many what if questions as in " what if I did this or that" are always answered by "try it "
gets pretty interesting at times.

having said this, even there it can get quite heated with people depending on their point of view
explaining things according to their understandings which tend to be as here either mechanistic or energetic

the teacher watching this would again come over and send one of them flying out with what seems to be just a touch
and then leave letting them think on what was just done.

even there with the teacher who could do these things, there where those that didn't quite feel what they felt was real
despite this they stay and practice trying to figure it out.

its that different, not just the no touch stuff that seems to illicit a lot of disbelief
the whole process is like that weather touched or not.

Mr.Wood,

Yes. It has health benefit as well. I would said that it can rejuvenate your bone/bone marrow, similar to bone marrow washing qigong. It also help one to 'learn' or acclimatize to incoming energy or strikes. It can unblock any blockages one might have in the body.

The 2nd point is what Chen YanLin said about LKJ, whereby it will not be ''effective''(jump) if one does not 'know' the energy.

When one cannot dissipate instantanously, one will not jump or hop back. Depending on the jin used, one will drop or fall into emptiness or if a strike, will feel like throwing up and/or feel like in a whiplash, ala Bolang jin. Except the movement is so refine so one cannot see it.

So those asking if those master can do LKJ like on youtube to them, have to take this into consideration. And there are ''other aspects'' as well but generally this is more relevant IMO and experenice.

Cheers,
UniTaichi

I have had some experience with LKJ where someone would move in a way that would cause me to adjust in a way, like good boxers do when they're squaring up. Yes, if someone understands this well it could create an opening but I don't think that one opening against a fighter who is young, stronger and quicker is going to be enough to declare victory.

I have met and trained with Leon Jay in the above video. His skill level is world class but like his father I believe he wanted to make his own mark and got into dim mak and no touch. His belief is that although it's not full proof there is something there and he believes someday they're going to figure all this stuff out. From that stand point I can respect what he's saying. That is I can understand someone at the level of a Leon Jay getting into this stuff after decades of training but what I don't understand is trying to teach this to people who don't even have the basics down. (Yet I could probably even argue that unless it's proven itself it shouldn't be taught at all.)

In the end people can focus on what they wish. The problem as I see is that if this stuff truly worked well in dangerous situations against highly skilled opponents everyone would be doing it.

One thing is for sure, all this stuff definitely contributes to criticism like this.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUQ328LxmEE