* Internal...

[D_Glenn]

I made several times now the suggstions to distinguish internal work from external work on the focus
on type I training. Sadly noone commented on it.

It's kind of BTDT. But in most of the older discussions people we're still using the term 'Slow Twitch' muscle fibers.

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[D_Glenn]

Trip, good post.

Kinda short on time to discuss your post but I will try tomorrow.

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[D_Glenn]

@D_Glenn
I think Bruce Lee had that body you mentioned the lean thin look towards the end of his life near the time when he did Enter The Dragon. I'm guessing this is how the body changes when you build up qi which burns the fat out of those 'cell membranes' so then it starts to reside in those spaces. It looks like and people might even say to you 'why you starving yourself' but they couldn't be further from the truth

I'm gonna say "no".
He just had a really low bodyfat % or high metabolism, and I wouldn't recommend doing whatever it was he did, as he was what? 33 years old when he died.


What I'm talking about is to be 60 years old and still healthier and stronger than most 18 year old men.

[Edit-- and as far internal power, I've yet to meet anybody who is even close-- Jinbao can only use about 10% of his power when demonstrating applications on people, to avoid inflicting serious injury, but that 10% still feels like being hit by a brick wall or getting pulled into the unstoppable gears of a giant machine. ]

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[GrahamB]

. . . probably not what Bodywork means.

Dan was just in Bristol this past weekend . . . you could have asked him.

Probably best not to derail this thread Tom, (tisk tisk!) but contacted him, was ignored, gave up. Also, not that bothered, so no loss! anyway, back to the topic...

[amor]

@D_Glenn

As for Bruce Lees training because not something I have looked into much. He worked on both tendons and muscle though. I'm guessing he probably picked some stuff off of shaolin. As you know they are very 'hard' in their methods and overdoing that kind of training especially incorrectly would probably result in death by misadventure.
But I read somewhere he was able to lift a a 50 kg barbell for 16 seconds, somewhere so maybe he was doing something right but he just probably overdid it

[jaime_g]

But I read somewhere he was able to lift a a 50 kg barbell for 16 seconds, somewhere so maybe he was doing something right

Well...That's a pretty easy thing, I dont see the merit

[amor]

But I read somewhere he was able to lift a a 50 kg barbell for 16 seconds, somewhere so maybe he was doing something right

Well...That's a pretty easy thing, I dont see the merit

I meant with one hand/arm held out in front of him in a (almost) locked position. Being an IMA forum I assumed people would probably know this and I was merely bringing up old info...my mind skipped ahead of my fingers oops!

[D_Glenn]

where when a typical '生物力 Shengwuli' (body movement) is first learned it's either just zero or 100%, but when it's trained and developed into a 勁 Jin (Refined Movement) - as 勁 'Jin' is made up of the character for an 'Underground river' (巠 Jing) next to 'Biomechanical Force' (力 Li) and represents the underlying movement of 'Yi, Qi and Xue' (Intent/ thought, energy and blood) that provides the movement, and this 勁 Jin can be controlled with your mind, or power output in varying percentages- 30%, 90%, etc., like in basketball where the ball can be thrown with just the right amount of force to just make it into the hoop, no matter how far away you are standing when you throw it.

The phrase "just the right amount" to make a hoop, sparked a new way for me to look at something I've done for a while. Thanks.

The words thrown and force that bracket that phrase sparked a few thoughts too.

Like...in basketball when someone uses the word thrown, it is not a compliment. To say someone can’t shoot they say he’s throwing up bricks. An implication that he’s not accurate and using too much force.
It means you might as well be tossing bricks because you do not know how to shoot a basketball.

In addition, when your shot is off, it’s not just something people observe objectively: it is also a visceral feeling. When they shout “He’s throwing bricks” it is accompanied with a frown and a groan.

When someone shouts he can shoot, they say things like,
“he’s feeling’ it”, “he’s got a shooter’s touch”, “He’s got a hot hand”,
“He’s on fire”, “he’s lighting it up”
“He’s in rhythm”, “He’s on a streak”
"he's schooling folks", etc.

Their description implies they are getting a kind of…sense of you: that you have a certain touch, that you have a feel for the game.
They say—he got skills.

Whereas, the use of force is described as, “he’s bulling his way in”. They are happy you scored but it is not as respected as having skills.

The odds increase that you can acquire the skills—to be a good shooter faster—if someone teaches you proper shooting position and wrist usage.

Like many, I played basketball since I was a little kid; shot thousands of shots, and won many games. Still, it was not until someone taught me proper hand position and wrist usage; and many drills that my shot got better. It was kinda funny because proper hand position and wrist usage was actually really simple. But I didn’t know that until after someone taught me. Plus, it’s so simple it’s easy to skip as a solution; easy not to do. Weird. Anyway, after a lot of practice, I began to shoot in a game without being aware of proper hand position and wrist usage.

It is the same with almost anything. If someone does not teach you, how will you know? Maybe you could read about it but that could lead you down many wrong paths. By the time you figure it out, years have gone by and you are old. In addition, what you teach yourself runs a high risk of being one-sided or just partial learning.

For instance, in Taiji if someone does not teach you how to fight with it properly, it does not matter how much you’ve read about it, how much push hands you do or how many fights you have. The odds will still be low that you will actually use Taiji in a fight properly.

Natural talent plus someone teaching you things properly and hard practice makes the odds high that you will be good at what you do. And, just maybe someone will shout he’s got skills.

In the silk reeling thread I mentioned how once you can get that 'threaded together connection' of the whole body, and the twisting, spiraling movement going in the limbs and body (called rising, falling, drilling, overturning in Baguazhang), and it's then relatively easy to impart a circular, spiraling force (or just an arc, or curved segment of a circle) on an opponent. But the next stage is learning to use the circular movements to then impart a straight force on the opponent, (or one line that forms a side of a square), where it's more difficult but the effect is better as it's more of an unfathomable force, to the opponent. But the 'Circle and Square', in a more basic sense, can be seen in good basketball players who, when shooting without the backboard behind the hoop, or from far away, will throw the ball in an arc: but with the backboard, then the ball can be shot 'straight' with the right amount of force to bounce into the hoop. Just one more tangible example of 'The Square inside the Circle'.

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[amor]

In the silk reeling thread I mentioned how once you can get that 'threaded together connection' of the whole body, and the twisting, spiraling movement going in the limbs and body (called rising, falling, drilling, overturning in Baguazhang), and it's then relatively easy to impart a circular, spiraling force (or just an arc, or curved segment of a circle) on an opponent. But the next stage is learning to use the circular movements to then impart a straight force on the opponent, (or one line that forms a side of a square), where it's more difficult but the effect is better as it's more of an unfathomable force, to the opponent. But the 'Circle and Square', in a more basic sense, can be seen in good basketball players who, when shooting without the backboard behind the hoop, or from far away, will throw the ball in an arc: but with the backboard, then the ball can be shot 'straight' with the right amount of force to bounce into the hoop. Just one more tangible example of 'The Square inside the Circle'.

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In the clip below around CXW mentions aound 0:58 using circular movements, in the silk-reeling style, and when the circles arrive it becomes straight and usually the moment of fajin. I suppose it wouldn't just be restricted to fajin but also other actions like cutting/drilling strikes or perhaps utilizing blocks and grabs and shaking like movements. Anything really as long as you have a well developed dantien. So perhaps its not the square inside circle strategy is advanced its just that you have to have a powerfully developed dantien to do all these which can take years to develop so in that sense it is advanced and culmination of all your previous training. Is this what you mean by the 'square inside the circle' strategy?


the clip itself: http://vimeo.com/42531802

[D_Glenn]

In the silk reeling thread I mentioned how once you can get that 'threaded together connection' of the whole body, and the twisting, spiraling movement going in the limbs and body (called rising, falling, drilling, overturning in Baguazhang), and it's then relatively easy to impart a circular, spiraling force (or just an arc, or curved segment of a circle) on an opponent. But the next stage is learning to use the circular movements to then impart a straight force on the opponent, (or one line that forms a side of a square), where it's more difficult but the effect is better as it's more of an unfathomable force, to the opponent. But the 'Circle and Square', in a more basic sense, can be seen in good basketball players who, when shooting without the backboard behind the hoop, or from far away, will throw the ball in an arc: but with the backboard, then the ball can be shot 'straight' with the right amount of force to bounce into the hoop. Just one more tangible example of 'The Square inside the Circle'.

In the clip below around CXW mentions aound 0:58 using circular movements, in the silk-reeling style, and when the circles arrive it becomes straight and usually the moment of fajin. I suppose it wouldn't just be restricted to fajin but also other actions like cutting/drilling strikes or perhaps utilizing blocks and grabs and shaking like movements. Anything really as long as you have a well developed dantien. So perhaps its not the square inside circle strategy is advanced its just that you have to have a powerfully developed dantien to do all these which can take years to develop so in that sense it is advanced and culmination of all your previous training. Is this what you mean by the 'square inside the circle' strategy?

the clip itself: http://vimeo.com/42531802

That's a good clip. CXW is trying to correct a lot of the erroneous information and ideas about TJQ.

Misunderstood texts that people read in books, or gets re-written into other books for some reason has more 'power', or is held in greater esteem, or holds more weight, in a person's mind, then what is seen, or felt from first hand experience, and spoken word.

I've only been talking about basic biomechanics, but using the spinal column and waist to 'fa li' is also a complex biomechanic, as I've written about in other threads, and it's force is 'straight', but it goes around bends as it travels up the spine, bends at dachui point, then out through the shoulder, down the upper arm, bends through the elbow, then straight out the bones of the forearm and out through laogong point, and it's also an example of 'the square inside the circle', the square is hard, the circle is soft. You can jab with the corner of the square (issue out through laogong point), which is really hard, or hit with the flat side of the square (issuing perpendicular to the bones of the forearm through neiguan point, but in Baguazhang you can also use the square in an arcing, raking motion, called 'zhan', which is putting 'the circle inside the square'.

It all takes time, but not just the passing of time while you're sitting and thinking about it, but the actual time spent practicing, and everyday, if you want to see any progress. Building up a Dantian takes X amount of time. Learning the basic biomechanics of the different 'shi' (movement patterns) takes X amount of time. Learning the biomechanic of the spine, called 'bolang jin', so you can add in the 'fa li' into those movement patterns. Which then, provided you've practiced all 3, can start fusing all 3 into 1 and the energy from your developed dantian, can be drawn up with the bolang jin movement of the spine, and added into the movement patterns that you know. And then there can be conceptual changes, that can subtly change the attacks, like adding the circle into the square, in various ways.

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[amor]

@D_Glenn

Ah good explanation makes a lot more sense in the IMA biomechanics context than basketball, from my perspective

I also found the clip of CXW a breath of fresh air, a lot of it gelled with me also and if he can fight as well as he writes, then I'm sure that would send a clear message to all the naysayers who doubt his fighting ability. Or maybe it was just a really good translator who filled in the gaps, so to speak

[D_Glenn]

The point, that I've been trying to get across in various posts, is that we're trying to change the way our body moves and functions, from the inside. The membrane-like tissues of our body, that will eventually connect the body into one single unit, are called 'yin' tissues. Where the muscles of our body are 'yang', and can be easily changed - (go lift some weights and in a few days the muscle will be stronger).
But the 'yin' tissues are more difficult to change because they're not directly supplied with blood; and the substances that provide the support and the building blocks for them are not easily digested and absorbed, so their health and growth is also limited by the amount of nutrients that we can safely ingest within any given day.

So - practice slow movements, done into the air. In our Yin style of Baguazhang we call this 畫道 'hua dao' (drawing/ painting out the paths), and it's kind of like calligraphy because if you had brushes in each hand then you'd be painting characters in 3 dimensions as you're moving.

If you only practiced the strikes into a punching bag, or used a heavy bag to lift and practice throwing, then you will only develop the 'yang' muscles, and then the fluid-movement and interconnectedness of the 'yin' tissues will never come about, or get developed.

Once you learn a movement pattern, and it feels right, then play around with doing it with some speed, as this is also necessary to make sure the different tissues are properly gliding over one another and transferring the movement down the chain.

It takes a certain amount of time, months, for the 'yin' tissues to become strong enough, equal or greater to the muscle's strength, to then withstand a strike to a punching bag, or other resistance.

Trying to progress too quickly, or not having the patience to only practice some basic movements against the air, is the major reason that people don't ever obtain any 'chan si jin'. But since these tissues are so hard to build-up, this also makes them difficult to then break back down, and it's a physical quality that is really hard to lose.
So there's about a 2 to 3 year window, in the beginning, where you should try to focus all your time towards nourishing and strengthening the 'yin' tissues of your body, and then you can go back to, or start doing some other things that are common to other martial arts.


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[jonathan.bluestein]

@D_Glenn

I think Bruce Lee had that body you mentioned the lean thin look towards the end of his life near the time when he did Enter The Dragon. I'm guessing this is how the body changes when you build up qi which burns the fat out of those 'cell membranes' so then it starts to reside in those spaces. It looks like and people might even say to you 'why you starving yourself' but they couldn't be further from the truth

I disagree regarding Bruce Lee. I think he had roughly the same fat percentage throughout most of his life (fluctuating between 6-8%) , and simply increased his muscular mass, which created more definition over time.

[chicagoTaiJi]

Don't use Li , but instead use Qi.

the version I am familiar with is "instead use Yi" (用意）, i.e. dont use power use intention

because external arts uses Qi not Yi

[johnwang]

because external arts uses Qi not Yi

When your opponent throws a

- side kick at you, you already picture that you will use one arm to deflect his kick, one hand to guide his leading arm to jam his back arm, followed by a punch on his face.
- jab, you already picture that you will use haymaker to hit on the back of his head and knock him down.

Does that qualify you as using "Yi" in external arts? When your opponent attacks you like that, you already have a smile on your face because you can predict what's going to happen, that's 100% Yi IMO.

When a good basketball player throws his ball toward the basket, he cam see that ball will go in that basket before it happens, that's Yi. Yi can be used in all sports. It has nothing to do with "internal".