this is not about Aikido

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Re: Aikido

Postby Marko on Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:43 am

Rabbit wrote:Come on now .....

Dan repeatedly tells everyone they are crap and don't know what they are talking about regardless of grade, teacher, lineage, practice time, while being unforthcoming about who taught him and refuses to provide any clips of himself in action

Oooh I wonder why people find him irritating?


I agree with everything you've said with the following caveats:

a) Dan tells most everyone that their skill is crap and that they don't know what they're talking about internal training. I think that the underlined makes a world of difference, but most people at least some of the time (myself included) hear criticizing of skill as judgment of self worth. A lot of people respond from the position that these two things are one and the same.

b) I think Dan very well explained in his answers to Ah Louis and me that he doesn't regard lineage and teachers because he is not commenting them. He is commenting people he's talking to. However, that said, as jaime and finny and I already stated, you can find the name of his daito ryu teacher, and all the arts he had trained in a matter of minutes on the internet. A lot of that info exist in older threads on rumsoakedfist. It's been stated, restated and discussed numerous times all over the net. It really is easy to find out. The question then is, if one is really interested to find out. And whether it adds anything to the discussion. I think that it doesn't.

c) Regarding vids, he has made two short clips available. One was posted twice here. Both times the only comments were jokes. Not a single word on actual skill or lack thereof, displayed in the clip.

d) As I said upthread, Dan is blunt and opinionated. These traits have always caused animosity in people. It is not a "proper way of communication" in our culture. We can either look past that and try to find out what people really mean beyond how they say it, or not.
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Re: Aikido

Postby jaime_g on Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:45 am

Rabbit wrote:Come on now .....

Dan repeatedly tells everyone they are crap and don't know what they are talking about regardless of grade, teacher, lineage, practice time, while being unforthcoming about who taught him and refuses to provide any clips of himself in action

Oooh I wonder why people find him irritating?


It is irritating...but Dan is right ;D Regardless of grade, teacher, lineage, practice time...most of the members of this forum (me included) just suck. You can get angry, call bullshit, argue...it's ok (you can find myself in this forum arguing with Dan many years ago...I was wrong by the way :-[ ).

At the end, the only thing that matters is what can you do against another man. I want the skills Dan has. I've even promised him that someday I'll kick his ass ;D (not going to happen soon :'( )
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Re: Aikido

Postby Rabbit on Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:49 am

c) Regarding vids, he has made two short clips available. One was posted twice here. Both times the only comments were jokes. Not a single word on actual skill or lack thereof, displayed in the clip.


lolz


I did look on line a read the epic thread on an Aikido sight that comes up .... interesting
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Re: Aikido

Postby Rabbit on Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:49 am

c) Regarding vids, he has made two short clips available. One was posted twice here. Both times the only comments were jokes. Not a single word on actual skill or lack thereof, displayed in the clip.


lolz


I did look on line a read the epic thread on an Aikido sight that comes up .... interesting
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Re: Aikido

Postby Marko on Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:57 am

Rabbit wrote:c) Regarding vids, he has made two short clips available. One was posted twice here. Both times the only comments were jokes. Not a single word on actual skill or lack thereof, displayed in the clip.


lolz


I did look on line a read the epic thread on an Aikido sight that comes up .... interesting


You just sort of proved my point. No one really cares to debate what Dan's showing/saying. Just to debate Dan. :-\
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Re: Aikido

Postby Marko on Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:00 am

jaime_g wrote:At the end, the only thing that matters is what can you do against another man. I want the skills Dan has. I've even promised him that someday I'll kick his ass ;D (not going to happen soon :'( )


My sentiment exactly. And while I hold no illusion that I'll ever kick his ass, I am willing to promise I'll kick your's some day :o ;D Just something to motivate my training ;)
Last edited by Marko on Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Aikido

Postby Ah Louis on Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:17 am

Marko wrote:
jaime_g wrote:At the end, the only thing that matters is what can you do against another man. I want the skills Dan has. I've even promised him that someday I'll kick his ass ;D (not going to happen soon :'( )


My sentiment exactly. And while I hold no illusion that I'll ever kick his ass, I am willing to promise I'll kick your's some day :o ;D Just something to motivate my training ;)


Why don't you, why hasn't he taught and told you, why don't you have the same skills? Why do you use the word someday and not now?
Ah Louis

 

Re: Aikido

Postby Ah Louis on Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:26 am

Ah Louis wrote:
Marko wrote:
jaime_g wrote:At the end, the only thing that matters is what can you do against another man. I want the skills Dan has. I've even promised him that someday I'll kick his ass ;D (not going to happen soon :'( )


My sentiment exactly. And while I hold no illusion that I'll ever kick his ass, I am willing to promise I'll kick your's some day :o ;D Just something to motivate my training ;)


Why don't you, why hasn't he taught and told you everything he knows who you can? Why don't you have the same skills? Why do you use the word "someday" and not now?
Ah Louis

 

Re: Aikido

Postby jaime_g on Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:43 am

Ah Louis wrote:
Marko wrote:
jaime_g wrote:At the end, the only thing that matters is what can you do against another man. I want the skills Dan has. I've even promised him that someday I'll kick his ass ;D (not going to happen soon :'( )


My sentiment exactly. And while I hold no illusion that I'll ever kick his ass, I am willing to promise I'll kick your's some day :o ;D Just something to motivate my training ;)


Why don't you, why hasn't he taught and told you, why don't you have the same skills? Why do you use the word someday and not now?


Very simple. Dan shows the training, explains why, what, how, where,when. Then it's your job to go through it.

The training works. Eight months after meeting him, I'm not the same guy. I'm way better than before, stronger, softer, a pain in the ass when sparring. Guys that used to kick my ass now are pretty easy to defeat. But it's not a miracle, you have to build your body.

Developing an aiki body needs time. Some things come soon, others slower. Getting a real dantien is not fast. However, even an immature body can do really nice things.
Last edited by jaime_g on Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Aikido

Postby Marko on Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:48 am

Ah Louis wrote:
Marko wrote:
jaime_g wrote:At the end, the only thing that matters is what can you do against another man. I want the skills Dan has. I've even promised him that someday I'll kick his ass ;D (not going to happen soon :'( )


My sentiment exactly. And while I hold no illusion that I'll ever kick his ass, I am willing to promise I'll kick your's some day :o ;D Just something to motivate my training ;)


Why don't you, why hasn't he taught and told you, why don't you have the same skills? Why do you use the word someday and not now?


Would you ask the same question if I said I cannot kick Tiger Woods ass in golf after going to his golfing seminars?
Last edited by Marko on Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Aikido

Postby Ah Louis on Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:32 am

Rabbit wrote:Come on now .....

Dan repeatedly tells everyone they are crap and don't know what they are talking about regardless of grade, teacher, lineage, practice time, while being unforthcoming about who taught him and refuses to provide any clips of himself in action

Oooh I wonder why people find him irritating?
Rabbit wrote:Come on now .....

Dan repeatedly tells everyone they are crap and don't know what they are talking about regardless of grade, teacher, lineage, practice time, while being unforthcoming about who taught him and refuses to provide any clips of himself in action

Oooh I wonder why people find him irritating?


Yes. I find his posting style and attitude to be argumentatively bullying. I think that is because there is no CV (grade, teacher, lineage, practice time, background or other qualification). It fits the mold of the professional conservative political commentator or talking head like Ann Coulter. Pro political agitators that have never held an office or a background in politics. Fanboys flock to these type of people, admiring and even worshiping them as people and for their bullying argument skills.

Arguing on the net using bullying tactics shows cleverness. If you think about it. Bullying on the net is a great way to attract loyal fanboys to your seminars/audience. I say seminar because it doesn't work as well with having a brick and mortar class. Net marketing is very powerful, and bring the product to the disenfranchised customer in small markets makes better financial sense. It is up there with direct marketing models.

Some people really admire and side with a bully because it show a type of strength they lack. A type of strength is to be defensive about a CV saying it is worthless. A blanket statement defaming everyone from traditional arts to MMA who have a legitimate CV, including the fanboys who have a CV. And the fanboys are blind to that fact and insult, or in serious denial.

Net bullies and those who follow them have no interest in having a real discussion on martial arts with others outside their group. They just want to intimidate, agitate and attack others as a show of a type of primitive strength. One that is very attractive to the disenfranchise potential fanboy. Yes, it irritating and annoying to have them jack a thread and attack posters. It is easy to tell someone they suck and they don't know what they are taking about. Especially when the accuser is refraining from any disclosure of background information, and offers nothing except distractions. It is easy to see the bully has been cherry picking other martial arts, and alternative and ancient medicine when selling their goods.

The clever bully attacks anyone who doesn't agree or challenges him, usually posting once or twice. The group is then signaled to attack. The group then takes over the attack which is a way they can share in the bully's power. A power the group admires, but can't have. They can only share in it. The clever bully works the fanboys to his advantage. He knows his power really lays in others willingness and desire for power. The entrepreneurial clever bully does the same thing, having the added benefit of using the bully strategy as a marketing strategy too to gain more business for martial arts instruction. This bully needs a fresh supply of hungry fanboys wanting the Holy Grail given to them to keep the business going. Because the information the bully sells isn't enough or good enough to retain fanboys for long. He sure in hell isn't going to hand over the Holy Grail, otherwise the bully would like the group the bully needs to feed his power.

Yes, the whole thing is irritating and annoying. You can't have a decent conversation or offer information without being jacked; told you suck and don't know what your talking about. The bully and his crew don't want to discuss anything, they are here to work they game. It is one huge reason so many boards are no longer existing. People have gotten sick of it and turned to other social networks en mass to have decent discussions. Bullies can't work their game in places like Facebook.
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Re: Aikido

Postby emptycloud on Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:42 am

my experience of aikido as a process - a partial reflection -

all training is purpose & context.

Most of us began training for a purpose.

Years ago, teenager, I got jumped one night, alone, coming home from the disco, by three guys. No money taken, just a nasty wee town with nasty wee bastards. It motivated me to find a martial art.

Years later I got cornered at reggae dance by some ragamuffin trying to take my green. It was in a back room, off the main dance, again I was alone, grabbed, a knife came out. A door was open between me and the youth and the dance hall. I had been drilling aikido footwork, obsessive, trying to perfect it, like you do when young.

Procedural memory is powerful, like a force of nature, I committed, moved, turned, spiralled, right the through the youth, causing chaos, time slowed, one lurched at the door to kick it shut, it closed sweetly right behind my back and I disappeared in to the rumbling bass, picked up my girl and trotted off through the mean streets of Toxteth.

This for me was a development from my first encounter with unprovoked attacks. I reflected about the foot work, automated movement, learnt neural pattens, trusting in the training.

Me and reggae music often found trouble, second knife attack. 4 am walking home from the sound system dance, through the park, out of the shadows, knife glints off the street lights, threats of getting cut announced, better run, can't run, panic rises..freeze frame, too stoned.

Thoughts of aikido class spontaneously arise in my mind. Teachers voice in my head loud and clear..." keep the maai ". A calmness descends, tunnel vision clears, "keep the maai' , breath returns, loose limbs. Trees begin to appear, first left then right, I disappear behind one, almost dragged around by instinct, assailants voice begins to waver, not so certain of his control anymore, another tree, then another.

Shikaku, I am right behind the guy, he is lost, panic in his voice, shouting crazy stuff about his mother, slashing at the darkness. I walk away slowly feeling sorry for the guy, he's totally mad. I could finished him, I'm holding a hefty broken branch in my hand.

At a party, running the sounds, drinkers in the corner don't like the beat. Getting bad vibes. I decide to split not in the mood for assholes tonight. Stopped in my tracks one of the guys, pretends he wants to dance with me, taking the piss, starts doing the can-can in my face. Not in the mood, try to play cool, the place is packed, a kick lands on my ribs. He laughs. Not good, hands grab my shoulders, a knee coming up fast for nuts or stomach.

The guy is on the ground, his arm is mangled up, some kind of ikkyo-smicky- yo-yo...I don't know how he got there.. well locked up, wrist, elbow, shoulder, and he's contorted in away that doesn't make sense for this kind of lock. Apologetic, he doesn't want any trouble now, just having laugh mate.

these are pretty low key altercations, but it show a process from having my ass handed to me to saving my ass through "aikido" study...

Back on the matts a lot of stuff just doesn't work, failure upon failure, week in, week out, year on year. But you just don't know what you know until you need to know it.

People tell me that "modern aikido" is useless as a martial art, airy fairy stuf..etc.....lol...

done me good and and more...much more than saving my ass in some stupid fight..

was there a point to this...there was but I forgot now...something about context..


Rich
Last edited by emptycloud on Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Aikido

Postby Ah Louis on Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:52 am

Isn't that the bottom line? If you tested it in the field and had positive results? That is experience isn't it, and hard to argue that. Sure people can throw mud or heckle the art, but if it saved your butt, it did its job. What more needs to be said.
Last edited by Ah Louis on Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Aikido

Postby Ah Louis on Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:32 am

Marko wrote:
Rabbit wrote:Come on now .....

Dan repeatedly tells everyone they are crap and don't know what they are talking about regardless of grade, teacher, lineage, practice time, while being unforthcoming about who taught him and refuses to provide any clips of himself in action

Oooh I wonder why people find him irritating?


I agree with everything you've said with the following caveats:

a) Dan tells most everyone that their skill is crap and that they don't know what they're talking about internal training. I think that the underlined makes a world of difference, but most people at least some of the time (myself included) hear criticizing of skill as judgment of self worth. A lot of people respond from the position that these two things are one and the same.

b) I think Dan very well explained in his answers to Ah Louis and me that he doesn't regard lineage and teachers because he is not commenting them. He is commenting people he's talking to. However, that said, as jaime and finny and I already stated, you can find the name of his daito ryu teacher, and all the arts he had trained in a matter of minutes on the internet. A lot of that info exist in older threads on rumsoakedfist. It's been stated, restated and discussed numerous times all over the net. It really is easy to find out. The question then is, if one is really interested to find out. And whether it adds anything to the discussion. I think that it doesn't.

c) Regarding vids, he has made two short clips available. One was posted twice here. Both times the only comments were jokes. Not a single word on actual skill or lack thereof, displayed in the clip.

d) As I said upthread, Dan is blunt and opinionated. These traits have always caused animosity in people. It is not a "proper way of communication" in our culture. We can either look past that and try to find out what people really mean beyond how they say it, or not.


Responses to
A) to each his own. I prefer qualified instruction from qualified instructors. People who have a CV that helps me determine quality of instruction and instructors. It avoids being bullshitted, and from shade tree instructors peddling their wares.

B & D) yes, he has. He believes credentials, licensing, grades, other proof of legitimacy and training is all worthless. It is better just to hang around those guy that do. He said it. Not me. I talked to the Daito ryu organization, Dan supposedly trained in. He has no rank, or ever had membership in legitimate Daito ryu. He had only attended a few weekend seminars conducted by an associate school of Daito ryu backing in the early 1990s. I think that is hardly enough time or experience in any art to claim being trained in it.

Another thing and a separate note. I was told by someone else many Daito ryu members and students find Dan offensive and refute Dan's claims, years ago when he was claiming Daito ryu skills. It was all over the net at the time in many boards. The biggest board with the most fighting was on E-budo between Dan and those who where legitimate major students of Daito ryu on E-budo. Much of that discussion has been erased now. Some of it done in protest against Dan. Because he was making many inaccurate and incorrect claims about Daito ryu in reference to himself and Daito ryu skill. Dan has been kicked off E-budo several times, and many other boards too. All for his misrepresentation and his posting style. WOW! that sure says allot.
Last edited by Ah Louis on Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Aikido

Postby Bodywork on Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:05 am

Marko wrote:Jaimie writes: At the end, the only thing that matters is what can you do against another man. I want the skills Dan has. I've even promised him that someday I'll kick his ass ;D (not going to happen soon).

Ah Louis response Why don't you, why hasn't he taught and told you, why don't you have the same skills? Why do you use the word someday and not now?

Marco writes : Would you ask the same question if I said I cannot kick Tiger Woods ass in golf after going to his golfing seminars?

No, he wouldn't.
Marco, of course this is a ridiculous, assessment about any teacher? It's not a rational question or even an attempt at a dialogue.
As Mark noted: did he ask for Corky's and Rich's qualifications to SAY that which I objected to, in the first place? He didn't. Instead, because I object, he wants to know who the hell I am for disagreeing. He openly demonstrates that he expects bona fides to come through rank and affiliation rather than real skills. Or worse, he apparently, actually believes rank and affiliation offers real world skills. No experienced budo person I ever met thinks this way.

So, there you go.
This isn't intelligent discussion among seasoned people. It's all point scoring in an adolescent, smarmy, internet debate and witch hunt.
________________________

Mr. Louis
I'm really not interested in what you think of my personality or reasons for WHAT I am talking about. If you can, try to summon yourself to an actual discussion of WHAT I am talking about, instead.
While I understand the internet's best defense for lack of any higher level physical skills and understanding is verbal debate and character assassination, its not really that interesting to me. It's understandable that you don't like being corrected. I don't particularly like arguing with students on the internet either. Being right, and knowing what you are doing and talking about, isn't bullying. Its being correct.
Oddly, there is no arguing, or debate.... in person with the people I meet.
You need to understand that budo begins and ends with real world skills, not the ridiculous (and artificial) philosopher/warrior construct of anime and Tarentino's hollywood, out of control imagination. If you want to be respected for what you know and can do, then what you know and can do has to have worth. You actually need to possess worthwhile information and vetted skills. Seasoned martial artists don't really give a shit about your rank, where you came from, or who you hang around with. They care about what you can do and teach. Which is why they come to me in the first place.

If you actually have something of value to add related to the subject, please offer it.
Bodywork

 

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