Kua Movement

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Re: Kua Movement

Postby aiasthewall on Mon Mar 21, 2016 8:32 pm

I am a relative beginner, but I have noticed that when rotating counter-clockwise, my right hip tends to "hitch" upwards sometimes, and this is something I have been working on correcting, as I imagine it is an inefficient use of power. Usually it is corrected by relaxing certain muscles down there more intently. I noticed it crept up especially in beng chuan. Also, when one side hitches, my knees tend to follow, out of alignment.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby amor on Tue Mar 22, 2016 12:09 pm

aiasthewall wrote:I am a relative beginner, but I have noticed that when rotating counter-clockwise, my right hip tends to "hitch" upwards sometimes, and this is something I have been working on correcting, as I imagine it is an inefficient use of power. Usually it is corrected by relaxing certain muscles down there more intently. I noticed it crept up especially in beng chuan. Also, when one side hitches, my knees tend to follow, out of alignment.



I have this problem too to some extent and its most probably due to too much 'slack in the system'. But atleast you are soft enough to realize its happening. Correcting it wont be easy but its about becoming both left and right handed. You're probably right handed individual so you need to work on the left more imo, but could be other reasons.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby amor on Tue Mar 22, 2016 12:21 pm

Bodywork wrote:My main point.
I talked about kua now in three threads. Graham has still offered nothing but quotes that he doesn't understand.

Wgen I said to try talking for himself. Try talking mechanics? He bailed.
Oh well.


Although I think I understand what you are saying about kua being about rotation and not about folding. Kua, to me, does encompass the folding bit or inguinal crease as its known in the online taichi world but it's also that part in the back between sacrum and hip bones on the pelvis , PSIS I think? Which when freed does bring about some rotation of the femur in the pelvis socket.
But how can this usage be used in a practical fighting application. Would you be able to explain this via one of the typical postures from say, the chen style form which probably has many examples of the figure-8 mechanism at play. I think most on here have probably guessed by now the theory of femur rotating in socket as representing kua and defines rotation more than folding but how does this relate to a real world example. I always learned things best by practical example and not always by blunt theory personally. So maybe try out a practical method?
Last edited by amor on Tue Mar 22, 2016 12:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Mar 22, 2016 8:59 pm

The legs and pelvis can be trained and developed to be like pistons. Reciprocating power from one leg into the other. In the style of Baguazhang that I practice these are called ascending and smashing. The power can be used in essentially any plane- going up down diagonal horizontally forward or backward, it can be long or short. The legs are 70% the hands are 30%. But the legs won't be better than the arms unless you learn how to use the kua.
The rotational power of the pelvis can be added into the hands are to scissor against the waist (Dantian) and arms.

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Re: Kua Movement

Postby amor on Wed Mar 23, 2016 5:02 am

D_Glenn wrote:The legs and pelvis can be trained and developed to be like pistons. Reciprocating power from one leg into the other. In the style of Baguazhang that I practice these are called ascending and smashing. The power can be used in essentially any plane- going up down diagonal horizontally forward or backward, it can be long or short. The legs are 70% the hands are 30%. But the legs won't be better than the arms unless you learn how to use the kua.
The rotational power of the pelvis can be added into the hands are to scissor against the waist (Dantian) and arms.

.


That is interesting, do you have a video of someone that shows some of this?
Last edited by amor on Wed Mar 23, 2016 5:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby Michael on Wed Mar 23, 2016 5:26 am

I have met hundreds of supposed master level gaslighters from around the world, but as soon as I put my lies on them, they began to question their own confidence, failing at internal gaslighting 101, that I teach on the first day of all my booked solid gaslighting seminars, at which I am so busy I don't even have time to properly gaslight the rest of this thread.

Why do I talk about myself so much, criticize entire categories of other gaslighters while implying the accusation came from other, more trusted sources, and then spontaneously accuse people of making false claims about helixes they've never made? The same reason I accuse others of making the discussion all about me after I've already gaslighted the whole thing to be about me. That's what the extra Friday night gaslighting part of my seminar is all about, by invitation only.

What the world of internal gaslighters really needs is a someone great like me. I'm an amazing gaslighter. I'm a gaslighting leader. I can build a gaslighting wall and make the victim pay for it.

Come to my seminar. I'm amazing. I'm a leader. You'll be an internal gaslighter because I told you to. Because I'm amazing and better than everyone else.
"If you treat your incarnation in this reality as one giant jail break you are definitely missing the whole point in being here." -Peacedog
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby amor on Wed Mar 23, 2016 6:36 am

^ hehe Michael that is hilarious
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby Bodywork on Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:07 am

amor wrote:
Bodywork wrote:My main point.
I talked about kua now in three threads. Graham has still offered nothing but quotes that he doesn't understand.

Wgen I said to try talking for himself. Try talking mechanics? He bailed.
Oh well.


Although I think I understand what you are saying about kua being about rotation and not about folding. Kua, to me, does encompass the folding bit or inguinal crease as its known in the online taichi world but it's also that part in the back between sacrum and hip bones on the pelvis , PSIS I think? Which when freed does bring about some rotation of the femur in the pelvis socket.
But how can this usage be used in a practical fighting application. Would you be able to explain this via one of the typical postures from say, the chen style form which probably has many examples of the figure-8 mechanism at play. I think most on here have probably guessed by now the theory of femur rotating in socket as representing kua and defines rotation more than folding but how does this relate to a real world example. I always learned things best by practical example and not always by blunt theory personally. So maybe try out a practical method?

You have to ask yourself a few questions:
Mechanically what would folding do to produce either stability, or power?
What would rotation do to enhance stability and power.

You yourself just noted that turning of the hip drags the knee. I would add that you can stretch and loosen and solve that problem, but without loosening the joints and re- training the legs/ pelvic floor/ and virtually all of the surrounding musculature, you would still just end up swimming your hips sideways like the vast majority of martial artists.
Next is the issue of creating a Dantien
Training it to use the power being offered by the legs and then directing it.... where? How?
How, does it come up when it used to spin..out?
What muscles are doing what to change?
What does "up" involve that isn't "out" anymore?
Powering through the hips.
Is vastly different than powering from the hips.
Powering through the hips is shown all over the place in high level guys (again, to stay on topic it is the OP video 0.20 and on)
Powering from the hips? Watch the rest of the videos from this thread and a host of other guys claiming that they don't... until you watch them move.
Devlin. You really don't want to bring power from one leg to the other through the lower basin. It is terribly inefficient. Joining the dantien to them and joining the upper body to the lower body through a conditioned connection between the dantien(s) is the way to go.
To say it another way:
You can generate all the power your can muster from your legs....
Where is it going?
How did it get there?
For most TMAers I've met..
A percentage good out their knees.
A percentage out their hips
A percentage out their shoulders
And another dumping from one side to the other.

The very idea of whole body connection and rotations in the frame to make yin/yang is like talking a different language. It takes ten seconds to put hands on people who do it and you can feel the difference. The problwm isn't that. The problem is being willing to eat bitter and re-tool your body to do it.
Last edited by Bodywork on Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby D_Glenn on Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:30 am

Dan, I understand what you are saying but you'd have to feel Jinbao do what I'm describing- basically all the power that the Kua has takes out your legs, while simultaneously the Bolang Jin power of the Dantian is taking out your upper body.

So think more about the 70% power that the kua can produce is all being directed to attack the opponent's lower basin. If that makes sense. It's a different usage of power then is seen in other martial arts.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby BruceP on Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:07 pm

Michael wrote:I have met hundreds of supposed master level gaslighters from around the world, but as soon as I put my lies on them, they began to question their own confidence, failing at internal gaslighting 101, that I teach on the first day of all my booked solid gaslighting seminars, at which I am so busy I don't even have time to properly gaslight the rest of this thread.

Why do I talk about myself so much, criticize entire categories of other gaslighters while implying the accusation came from other, more trusted sources, and then spontaneously accuse people of making false claims about helixes they've never made? The same reason I accuse others of making the discussion all about me after I've already gaslighted the whole thing to be about me. That's what the extra Friday night gaslighting part of my seminar is all about, by invitation only.

What the world of internal gaslighters really needs is a someone great like me. I'm an amazing gaslighter. I'm a gaslighting leader. I can build a gaslighting wall and make the victim pay for it.

Come to my seminar. I'm amazing. I'm a leader. You'll be an internal gaslighter because I told you to. Because I'm amazing and better than everyone else.



Will the Friday night session help me harden my tender sensibilities and float my wine? If not, it could be a very bad combo.
Appeals to authority is why we can't have nice things
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby Bodywork on Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:44 pm

D_Glenn wrote:Dan, I understand what you are saying but you'd have to feel Jinbao do what I'm describing- basically all the power that the Kua has takes out your legs, while simultaneously the Bolang Jin power of the Dantian is taking out your upper body.

So think more about the 70% power that the kua can produce is all being directed to attack the opponent's lower basin. If that makes sense. It's a different usage of power then is seen in other martial arts.

Hi Devlin.
The whole body is connected. You are NOT using a part to do a thing without the other parts. The kua and legs can certainly be going one way...
But...
And this is huge...
All the power comes up and through and is directed by... Dantien. You're not going to get very far without dealing with the knees, kua, lower, middle and upper dantien, connected and generating and then directing power. Segmenting lower and upper? Even thinking that way? Is a mistake. They all work together.
I think you are mistaking HJB's semantics for aiming or targeting... As him saying segmented use.

In stand up grappling I can use bowing to pull me down and out, aim it and uproot a guy. But if I am "pulling?" WTF am I pulling...... on? My pelvic floor? Leaving the rest of me to have coffee? ;D of course not.
I engage all of me. It may be with different rotations and directions of force but it's all of me moving. You pull on one part, its felt all over.
And bringing up bowing? How on earth do you suppose to get power out of the back..... NOT CONNECTED TO THE LEGS?
It might be semantics on your part. But verbally, what you are saying? Makes no sense.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby Bodywork on Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:49 pm

BruceP wrote:Will the Friday night session help me harden my tender sensibilities and float my wine? If not, it could be a very bad combo.

Hi Bruce
Of course all of that was aimed at me. Frid. Nights are for regular people to ask questions and address things other newbies may not be ready for, or focus on stuff that particular group is working on.
Some call it respect for students in a professional relationship.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby D_Glenn on Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:02 pm

Bodywork wrote:
D_Glenn wrote:Dan, I understand what you are saying but you'd have to feel Jinbao do what I'm describing- basically all the power that the Kua has takes out your legs, while simultaneously the Bolang Jin power of the Dantian is taking out your upper body.

So think more about the 70% power that the kua can produce is all being directed to attack the opponent's lower basin. If that makes sense. It's a different usage of power then is seen in other martial arts.

Hi Devlin.
The whole body is connected. You are NOT using a part to do a thing without the other parts. The kua and legs can certainly be going one way...
But...
And this is huge...
All the power comes up and through and is directed by... Dantien. You're not going to get very far without dealing with the knees, kua, lower, middle and upper dantien, connected and generating and then directing power. Segmenting lower and upper? Even thinking that way? Is a mistake. They all work together.
I think you are mistaking HJB's semantics for aiming or targeting... As him saying segmented use.

In stand up grappling I can use bowing to pull me down and out, aim it and uproot a guy. But if I am "pulling?" WTF am I pulling...... on? My pelvic floor? Leaving the rest of me to have coffee? ;D of course not.
I engage all of me. It may be with different rotations and directions of force but it's all of me moving. You pull on one part, its felt all over.
And bringing up bowing? How on earth do you suppose to get power out of the back..... NOT CONNECTED TO THE LEGS?
It might be semantics on your part. But verbally, what you are saying? Makes no sense.
Dan

You are totally wrong bud.
Edit-- ...about HJB's teaching. I've heard hours and hours of lectures, from Jinbao, about this topic. This power is called Duan Da, meaning it's short - from tailbone to tip of fingers, from Dang (Kua's) down to foot. In the Dragon System the power and usage of the Kua is Long (chang - from foot to hand/fingers) and it's similar to the way other martial systems work and to what you are advocating, BUT the Lion, and some of the other animal systems, make usage of this short power, for in-fighting.
It's different, hard to fathom, difficult to grasp how it can work/ it's functionality, etc., so that's why one has to feel it. Long power is relatively easy, short is difficult to learn. But the Lion is our foundation system so great efforts need to be done to properly build it.

You just have to meet him some time, feel the power, and hear the discussion/ descriptions.

There's no point in discussing it with you until you feel the power yourself and hear what he's saying in person, where hands-on and visuals can aid the instructions.
But also factor in my previous post about Xindi, that's another factor that makes it difficult to teach.

.
Last edited by D_Glenn on Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby D_Glenn on Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:04 pm

And Bolang Jin is not "bowing".

That's another thing you will learn.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby Doc Stier on Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:15 pm

Most people don't listen with the intention of understanding. They only listen with the intent to reply! :-\

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/77/fc/77/77fc77e4458fbbda5ec31ef0a784d1ac.jpg
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