Kua Movement

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Re: Kua Movement

Postby LaoDan on Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:17 am

Thanks Dan that is helpful. I realize that the ball analogy is simplistic and that we have numerous balls that are difficult to coordinate. Balls within balls; balls contacting other balls; balls related to each other like the “nine pearl bends” (which I view more as the centers of rotation for balls more than bends as for joints). I also realize that even when able to understand something conceptually, and felling it in someone else, it is still a lot of work to put it into practice in one’s own art.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby Ed Ladnar on Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:09 am

What an awesome thread. I'd love to see more of these kinds of discussions. If we discussed more the actual experiences we are having with training, we might be able to develop a more accurate vocabulary to describe them. What do you think it means to open a kua over your back and close the other kua down with dantien? If we are to assume that there is a physical reality underlying these concepts, what does that look like? More importantly, what does that feel like?
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby wiesiek on Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:18 am

one side is higher
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby Bodywork on Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:08 am

Ed Ladnar wrote:What an awesome thread. I'd love to see more of these kinds of discussions. If we discussed more the actual experiences we are having with training, we might be able to develop a more accurate vocabulary to describe them. What do you think it means to open a kua over your back and close the other kua down with dantien? If we are to assume that there is a physical reality underlying these concepts, what does that look like? More importantly, what does that feel like?

For starters
To Wiesiek:
No.... Nothing is " higher" that would be a failure.
Ed,
This is ALL..... about physical reality using a chaining of tissues throughout the body manipulated by the mind to move differently than is normal. It makes massive force.
A bit about force:
These forces stay within the body and act to generate it within a neutrality. In other words, while making massive displacement, nothing leaves you. As for uses? If I can't or couldn't use this to fight, I wouldn't bother with it, only later did I understand it is a superior and healthier way to live in my body.

Force going through tissue has an effect on that tissue. The directions involved get cleaner and clearer as you train. If guided properly: knees, hips, and shoulder act as supports in translating forces vertically and rotationally. The major muscles generate a clean force, the arms direct that force, not generate it. It is why your shoulders and arms are so little. Generating forces that stay inside of you and manipulate through bowing and rotating create a very stable platform that is highly resistant to being messed with. It wants to maintain those paths of power. Even when hitting and kicking the power stays inside. When applying weight on others, it never really left you.
In not understanding how to use their hips, normal martial artists swing their mass, launching punches and kicks from hips. Not having a dantien: they really can't address how power coming through the hips aided by rotation is used in conjunction with dantien and waste and back, rather then laterally translating forces and throwing it out. Even hip swinging rotation suffers loss and stresses the knees.
There is a massive tissue displacement that can take place from feet to head that supports the arms that can only reach its fullest capacity going through kua and having a joined rotational values with dantien, back and waist.

As far as outside movement goes, when it is clean, those who know how it is done can see it. In fact you can't hide it. Many times you reveal yourself walking into a room, even before engaging any one. Then once met, you know in an instant when you feel somebody how they generate their power and where their holes are (no, I am not talking about fighting ability, that's different topic).
Last edited by Bodywork on Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:27 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby onebir on Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:29 am

Bodywork wrote:There is a massive tissue displacement that can take place from feet to head that supports the arms that can only reach its fullest capacity going through kua and having a joined rotational values with dantien, back and waist.


This sounds like Bolang jin - patiently described by D_Glenn in the later pages of the "Chan Si Jin" thread? (But there's also Fanlang Jin - at least...)
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby D_Glenn on Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:17 am

Standing-in-Place striking drills, while keeping the feet stationary, meaning not pivoting or sliding at all, and keeping the pelvis held at one steady height, not bobbing up and down when striking side to side, will develop a mobility in your hip joints but more importantly is it forces you to figure out how to move your femurs in coordination with the pelvis to smoothly turn it from facing one side and back to the other side. It eventually becomes a like a machine and this smoothly operating machine can produce an unbelievable amount of power. The legs are 70%. This learned movement is what gives them that power.

When we talk about forces, this kua mechanism is the major source of the 1st force. Bolang Jin is a different mechanism and is used to add in a 2nd force to that initial impact.

BUT...

Everything that is physically happening below your waist, has to be controlled by your Xindi (Ground Mind). Everyone's Ground Mind is pretty 'Ben' (Dumb). There are some natural-born athletes who's major source of their talent is because their Xindi is so adept, and then their 'Yi' (Wisdom mind) can solely focus on the skills required above the waist in the torso and arms.
But the rest of us have to live with a dumb Xindi, but fortunately the Chinese have kind of solved this problem, but that requires that a person follows the training rules of the martial art. One of the important ones is always practice both your hands and leg work at the same time. You can practice just your hands and upper body, but never practice just your legs or else you will be using 'Yi' and not your 'Xindi'.

Basketball players have a highly developed 'Xindi' but it's because they always have to be worried about dribbling the ball whenever the move and use their legs.

So, in other words, the complex mechanism of Kua; Femur; and Pelvis Movement is something you have to learn, but, you can't think about it. Learning without thinking. It's conundrum (謎語 Miyu).

.
Last edited by D_Glenn on Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:51 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby Bodywork on Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:08 pm

onebir wrote:
Bodywork wrote:There is a massive tissue displacement that can take place from feet to head that supports the arms that can only reach its fullest capacity going through kua and having a joined rotational values with dantien, back and waist.


This sounds like Bolang jin - patiently described by D_Glenn in the later pages of the "Chan Si Jin" thread? (But there's also Fanlang Jin - at least...)

No it isn't.
I've not discussed much at all regarding many other aspects of movement. There is so much more to even the simple kua movement in conjunction with bowing and coordination of upper and lower, as well as the both the definition and use of intent, than in what I wrote. Some of which stands in direct contradiction to what Devlin writes, other times they agree.
His terminology is different as well, but I pay attention more to what he is actually saying rather than what he says specific words and sayings.... mean. Which is his opinion as opposed to his teachers and his arts doctrine? Is he an accurate representative of his arts teachings? I wouldn't know. So I let the words stand or fall on their own merits. I respect Devlin and his efforts either way, regardless of mistakes and agreement/ disagreement.
Last edited by Bodywork on Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby onebir on Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:35 am

Bodywork wrote: There is so much more to even the simple kua movement in conjunction with bowing and coordination of upper and lower, as well as the both the definition and use of intent, than in what I wrote. Some of which stands in direct contradiction to what Devlin writes, other times they agree.
His terminology is different as well, but I pay attention more to what he is actually saying rather than what he says ...


This makes me wonder: has there been a collective effort to catalogue the jins here (ideally with video examples)?
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby D_Glenn on Sun Feb 28, 2016 9:32 am

onebir wrote:This makes me wonder: has there been a collective effort to catalogue the jins here (ideally with video examples)?

That would be an impossible task, and without being able to feel, first-hand, what a specific Jin does then the list would be useless in regards to teaching.

The other thing is that most Jins are just biomechanical movements, then some jins are just conceptual skills or finer skills that subtly change the overt biomechanic, then some jins are for describing the interaction with the opponent's jins like Ting Jin (Listening [to the opponent's] Jin), and then you get into the category of Internal Jins (Neijin) and that's a whole other thing.

In the style of Bagua I practice we have eight animal systems and they all have their own distinct body-methods and their own Jins, some of the Jins share the same name but they are different manifestations of that similar Jin.

I used to talk freely about these different body-methods but the Phoenix System is drastically different from other ones and that's where people, like Dan, got confused. Granted, it is in some ways doing the opposite of what the Lion is doing and building, but the Phoenix is built upon the Lion foundation but goes in the direction of developing the Internal Jins- which essentially means the 1st force may not really hurt an opponent that much but it's the 2nd force that gets inside and does the damage, where in Lion you want to rely on the 1st force and if the 2nd one gets in then that's just a bonus.

But ever since the whole Phoenix Debacle, which was years ago now, I've been trying to keep all my writings pertinent to the Lion System. But what Dan uses is a Body-Method that's more similar to our Bear System. The Lion and Bear are more similar than lion to Phoenix, but there are still some key differences between the Body-Methods. Like in the Lion is where you learn and develop all your silk reeling and use of the lower abdomen and spine to Bolang Jin aka Zhedie Jin, but in the bear you still use what you learned in the Lion but the emphasis is on getting more power out of the Kua and upper back and the Bolang Jin movement is subtler and more refined.

.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby jaime_g on Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:55 am

I cant see anything similar between Yin Bagua Bear and Dan's method ???
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby onebir on Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:58 am

D_Glenn wrote:That would be an impossible task, and without being able to feel, first-hand, what a specific Jin does then the list would be useless in regards to teaching. The other thing is that most Jins are just biomechanical movements

Those are the ones I meant... If they have Chinese names, they must be listable & possibly subject to disambiguation? Also some styles (Mantis?) have incorporated so much from others I wonder if a lot of that conceptual work hasn't been done. Anyway just a thought.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby D_Glenn on Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:13 am

jaime_g wrote:I cant see anything similar between Yin Bagua Bear and Dan's method ???

more similar. Meaning more than anything else. And really only the usage of the Kua.

Externally, one might think that Dan's movements are more similar to our Lion, but I've only seen a video of Dan back around 2007ish, so I'm basing my statement off a memory of what I had observed then. So I'm not a reliable source and really, I have no idea what he's doing these days.

.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby amor on Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:46 pm

D_Glenn wrote:
Everything that is physically happening below your waist, has to be controlled by your Xindi (Ground Mind). Everyone's Ground Mind is pretty 'Ben' (Dumb). There are some natural-born athletes who's major source of their talent is because their Xindi is so adept, and then their 'Yi' (Wisdom mind) can solely focus on the skills required above the waist in the torso and arms.
But the rest of us have to live with a dumb Xindi, but fortunately the Chinese have kind of solved this problem, but that requires that a person follows the training rules of the martial art. One of the important ones is always practice both your hands and leg work at the same time. You can practice just your hands and upper body, but never practice just your legs or else you will be using 'Yi' and not your 'Xindi'.


.


What about coordinating the feet and the kua specifically making sure you get the relevant number of points of the feet on the ground. Can you coordinate this without your yi. I find I have to make slight adjustments to the feet positions every time I move my kua as the pelvis moves. Moving the pelvis physically would just engage too much movement and then you would lose your alignments. Doesn't seem like you can not involve your yi for below waist movement even if its only minimal.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby D_Glenn on Sun Feb 28, 2016 5:47 pm

amor wrote:What about coordinating the feet and the kua specifically making sure you get the relevant number of points of the feet on the ground. Can you coordinate this without your yi. I find I have to make slight adjustments to the feet positions every time I move my kua as the pelvis moves. Moving the pelvis physically would just engage too much movement and then you would lose your alignments. Doesn't seem like you can not involve your yi for below waist movement even if its only minimal.

I don't know what "points of the feet on the ground" means, and I have no idea what the relevant number would be.

???

***
Feet sliding around on the floor? That just means you need to practice more zhan zhuang and establish a better root.

***
"Doesn't seem like you can not..."

That's a double negative. I wouldn't know how to answer that.

Maybe: 'Yes, you could not.' :D

.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby Bodywork on Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:59 pm

D_Glenn wrote:
jaime_g wrote:I cant see anything similar between Yin Bagua Bear and Dan's method ???

more similar. Meaning more than anything else. And really only the usage of the Kua.

Externally, one might think that Dan's movements are more similar to our Lion, but I've only seen a video of Dan back around 2007ish, so I'm basing my statement off a memory of what I had observed then. So I'm not a reliable source and really, I have no idea what he's doing these days.

.

Devlin
That's wasn't me.
There is an Aikido guy named Dan(e) Harden that many have confused with me. I don't move ANYTHING like that.
I've never been on film until 2015. And that was two very short clips with little movement shown.
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