the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Actually the guy hasn't said a word about the "kua". As I understand, he is talking about that he leed the incoming force trough his left leg to the ground. Then he uses this leg as a pivot etc...

Örs

don`t know the language,
but he has to support the weight on the end of the spiral...

ors wrote:Actually the guy hasn't said a word about the "kua". As I understand, he is talking about that he leed the incoming force trough his left leg to the ground. Then he uses this leg as a pivot etc...

Örs

It doesn't matter what he says he is doing. He's Chinese.
What matters is what he is doing.
If you lined up one thousand Asian teachers to teach on film, I wouldn't give you a nickel for what they say they are doing being entirely accurate.

And while I won't go into details myself...
How exactly do you think you...pivot.....on a leg in the first place.
And why would anyone use just one leg?
He's not. Regardless of what he says. His own teachers/peers make that VERY clear in their videos as well

The real meat of the questions are:
*What pivots?
*What doesn't?
*And why?
*And how do you avoid all the lateral loss displayed by so many people, including certain internal coaches in their how to videos?

To be clear...
Where is all that force supposed to NOT GO, yet almost always does?

front wrote:

littlepanda wrote:In the first video you posted the guy is definitely moving his femoral heads in the sockets but the movement is initiated from the waist rather from the kua. Whereas in the second video the movement starts from the kua.

I disagree. Kua and dantien work together and it is hard to distinguish sometimes what started first.

For me dantien and waist are two different things. Since I've not developed a dantien ball in my belly I won't talk about dantien movement.

IME you can initiate movement from the kua or the waist separately. Combining them together is your choice.

.

Bodywork wrote:The real meat of the questions are:
*What pivots?
*What doesn't?
*And why?
*And how do you avoid all the lateral loss displayed by so many people, including certain internal coaches in their how to videos?

To be clear...
Where is all that force supposed to NOT GO, yet almost always does?

I'm not entirely sure you understand what you're talking about Dan. In that first video, so long as he maintains a jin path from the guy pushing on his chest to his feet, you can't really have any 'lateral loss' by moving the kua or hips. It shouldn't really matter what pivots - the body should automatically adjust to the incoming load so long as you use your Yi to create the path. You're then free to store and release along your structure to bounce them off, or whatever.

GrahamB wrote:

Bodywork wrote:The real meat of the questions are:
*What pivots?
*What doesn't?
*And why?
*And how do you avoid all the lateral loss displayed by so many people, including certain internal coaches in their how to videos?

To be clear...
Where is all that force supposed to NOT GO, yet almost always does?

I'm not entirely sure you understand what you're talking about Dan. In that first video, so long as he maintains a jin path from the guy pushing on his chest to his feet, you can't really have any 'lateral loss' by moving the kua or hips. It shouldn't really matter what pivots - the body should automatically adjust to the incoming load so long as you use your Yi to create the path. You're then free to store and release along your structure to bounce them off, or whatever.

Wow. That's completely wrong. Seriously so. I'm really glad people still buy it, though.
And a sustained path is so basic it shouldn't even be part of the discussion. Its the entry exam to kindergarten. Sure, maintaining and sustaining a connection doesn't require a shape. Many can do the rubber man/ immovable man trick. What you do to make that connection... in you.. has little to do..with them. It's what[/i you do ]with that connection has absolute values.
*You cannot store and release in any old random fashion can you? Or maybe you think you can? Aa an aside I will offer that moving along a continuum of store-to-store is a better way to fight (particularly grappling and with weapons). Store and release is not always the way to go in certain pressuered venues with experienced people.
*Regardless, there are specific mechanics involved in that, that work and others that go from completely erroneous to partially correct, but never the less, simply miss the mark.

It is the same with supported rotation.
*You cannot just [i] do anything in rotation because you maintained a path to the ground.
*Things rotate that transfer power cleanly along the system or create potential loss along the path, some to a greater degree than others.
* Secondarily, the means to create and sustain rotation are not just a maintained path either. As is clearly laid out in the classics and in a few JMA. There is a marked difference in value created with certain movements....with the same sustained path as a given.
One is simply superior to the other.


*There are gains and there are losses. But you would have to know, to know. In person it is irrefutable. It is what it is. Even good practitioners can be improved upon.

Having some power in a cooperative venue can lead you down wrong paths, while being convinced you get it.

Further, with a body correctly connected up, someone's force need not be applied to be manipulated. It should already be happening. It is how you are moving through free space that sustains your central equilibrium. Power in and out can enhance your balance or detract from it. Done well it makes it much harder to be played when you are not responding to forces, they are responding to yours. Following a force direction is reactive, not proactive. It is a exactly what a good grappler will play you with. There is a method to use a connected body to have them on the reactive side of the OODA loop.
But I'm not here to argue, Graham. I'm happy you are happy with what you and others, do.

Hi Dan!

OK. I have watched it again, and I was a little bit wrong. At 0:14 he sais " right kua going up, left kua going down, so his (the other guy's) force going down as well..."
As I understand he fixes his left leg, and turning (rotating) his body on his left hipjoint, using his whole body (except his left leg) to "attack" the forceline from the side. Just like a hoist or jack (I don't know the right word sorry)...
The point is that he has to pivot on the femur's had, while his left leg is almost fix. Plus he has to give some angle to his rotation with the "one hip up, one hip down" movement to make the other guy loosing balance. He just makes his rotation horizontally the other guy wouldn't tilt...

Örs

Show us how it's done dan
Oh I forgot that dosent suit your agenda

Bodywork wrote:The real meat of the questions are:
*What pivots?
*What doesn't?
*And why?
*And how do you avoid all the lateral loss displayed by so many people, including certain internal coaches in their how to videos?

To be clear...
Where is all that force supposed to NOT GO, yet almost always does?

The force is not supposed to go to the knees. It also generally should not tilt the hips unless desired as that is also a form of "bleeding out" the force.

wayne hansen wrote:Show us how it's done dan
Oh I forgot that dosent suit your agenda

I have an agenda?
What is it, Wayne?
Enlighten me.

ors wrote:Hi Dan!

OK. I have watched it again, and I was a little bit wrong. At 0:14 he sais " right kua going up, left kua going down, so his (the other guy's) force going down as well..."
As I understand he fixes his left leg, and turning (rotating) his body on his left hipjoint, using his whole body (except his left leg) to "attack" the forceline from the side. Just like a hoist or jack (I don't know the right word sorry)...
The point is that he has to pivot on the femur's had, while his left leg is almost fix. Plus he has to give some angle to his rotation with the "one hip up, one hip down" movement to make the other guy loosing balance. He just makes his rotation horizontally the other guy wouldn't tilt...

Örs

Interesting.
I would say his left kua is oppening and going up around his back and his right is closing and going down with dantien. At .049 he points to the left going up and around his back. Earlier at .025 he screws up just a bit while turning left kua. He off lines his own left foot. You see it come up. And at .049 when he moves quickly it comes right up, not good! You'll never see LCG or LCD doing that.

FWIW, Pivoting around a *single leg* is a misunderstood concept. It makes no sense at all.

C.J.W.

Deng and Beng- one leg is Deng the other has to be doing Beng, and vice versa.



.

Dan (Bodywork),

Since I do not know the terminology that you use (never having studied with you), I get the impression that some of the differences in interpretation on this thread may be semantics.

Does “pivot” (pivoting around) imply like a hinge to you or is it consistent with how a ball rotates around its center? Does “store and release” imply non-continuous actions (stopping at an end point that requires reversing or restarting) or can it be consistent with how a ball rotates in order to issue with one side while absorbing with the other in a continuous cycle? Does “potential loss along the path” relate to off center movement (not maintaining a neutral center and thus losing the cycle of rotation, what I understand as “double weighting” although other practitioners seem to have different definitions of that principle)? Etc.

It seems to me like different people on this thread are reading other poster’s comments with differing implications of the words used. Of course, in person these potential misinterpretations may go away when two people can feel what the other is doing rather than trying to put it into words, but this thread is somewhat confusing to me (though I may just be at a relatively low level and cannot understand until I gain greater ability). Since our backgrounds are different (I study primarily Taijiquan and ILiqChuan), it is likely that we imply different things even when using similar terminology to describe something.

Dan

LaoDan wrote:Dan (Bodywork),

Since I do not know the terminology that you use (never having studied with you), I get the impression that some of the differences in interpretation on this thread may be semantics.

Does “pivot” (pivoting around) imply like a hinge to you or is it consistent with how a ball rotates around its center? Does “store and release” imply non-continuous actions (stopping at an end point that requires reversing or restarting) or can it be consistent with how a ball rotates in order to issue with one side while absorbing with the other in a continuous cycle? Does “potential loss along the path” relate to off center movement (not maintaining a neutral center and thus losing the cycle of rotation, what I understand as “double weighting” although other practitioners seem to have different definitions of that principle)? Etc.

It seems to me like different people on this thread are reading other poster’s comments with differing implications of the words used. Of course, in person these potential misinterpretations may go away when two people can feel what the other is doing rather than trying to put it into words, but this thread is somewhat confusing to me (though I may just be at a relatively low level and cannot understand until I gain greater ability). Since our backgrounds are different (I study primarily Taijiquan and ILiqChuan), it is likely that we imply different things even when using similar terminology to describe something.

Dan

Great post.
Most people open like a hinge. I'm talking rotation. However, rotating to issue (let's use one side forward, one back) can be almost as bad as it still leaves a dead translation point. In principle, you never return the way you left. and you never have a "stop."
Saying that is simple. Martial arts are plagued by people who do all of the above.
So.... How does a ball make change that doesn't have dead or double weighted movement?
People are not single rotation balls!
How do people do that internally?

There are many ways to try to accomplish that. They are most assuredly not all the same. Its why you see people like that famous vimeo internal coach, and the guy in the video in OP off line themselves!!! without any opposition needed. If your feet are screwed and tilted...it shows specific failures in the system. But not everyone knows and has good diagnostic tools to fix you. And many teachers just don't give a shit about spending that much time on you anyway.
You can stop someone IN MOVEMENT and then touch them here and there. Examine their positions and their ideas of jin and demonstrate quite clearly where the holes in their understanding are.
It is something to do with a trusted partner.
Where....are your holes?
Where are you double weighted.
When, are you dead in transition?
What was not translated properly?

Once you get into: what rotates and how?
What rotates WITH what?
How does that translate to whole body use?
You get into what divides and unites us.
I'm not going to lay it all out. It would be pointless and argumentative. Your other observation is spot on. You touch hands and figure it all out; what various terminology mean, versus actual skill and movement models.