External Sports Influence

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Re: External Sports Influence

Postby everything on Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:31 am

so...what are we actually discussing now?
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:32 pm

Bao wrote:Great Wille, very much appreciated. Good move. 8-)

oragami_itto wrote: Just before the movement occurs, there is a telegraph that it's about to happen. Is this intentional in the style or is it something you're working on?


Willie wrote an answer to you, but seems to have deleted it. I don't know why, it was pretty good and straightforward.


Thanks
I'm trying to figure out a way of talking about things indirectly, Why? Because some people are often offended with direct answers.
So I decided to remove the answers and let them figure out their own answers.
Last edited by willie on Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:46 pm

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:
It was some advice that I took from a Tai Chi Master long long ago that I wanted to discuss with the board but unfortunately guys like Ian who have over-inflated ego ruined it for everyone


LOL

As usual, I think your performance is quite nice. I was simply pointing out what seemed like a startling lack of basic information about the art.

But, getting back to the original topic, wouldn't it be better to use one of your application videos for this subject?


Sometimes I get frustrated with the complicity of explaining.
also it's not easy acquiring a complete understanding of the art. There is so much to it and resources are limited.
I'm actually lucky to have what I have.
Thanks
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:12 pm

charles wrote:
I'm not sure I really understand the question. Under what circumstances do external influence, peer pressure or main stream media enter into one's training?


As you know I have MMA underneath my art. Other MMA guys that I know think it's stupid to spend so much time on an ancient art like taijiquan.
Maybe they are right?
If, for example, one trained a traditional art with a traditional teacher in a traditional way - whatever those might mean - then external influences, peer pressure and main stream media might be irrelevant. They become relevant under what modern circumstances? Wanting peer acceptance/recognition? Wanting to contribute to main stream media (e.g. Youtube) - and receive positive feedback? Wanting to enter public contests and win? I'm sure there are others.

I'm not trained in a traditional way. I jumped right into the frying pan. I already had decent MMA, So I got to go pretty much all out with my teachers in private.
Also, I find that it's a very lonely art. There isn't many people left doing this stuff and most of the ones that i have met aren't into martial stuff.
One can argue that Taijiquan was originally created as a fighting art - and only a fighting art - and work to restore it to its former glory and its one true focus. To do so, ignores that for the vast majority of practitioners, in modern times, in a modern world, that simply isn't what Taijiquan is about. But, that doesn't prevent anyone from pursuing it for whatever are his or her personal goals, be they martial or something else.


What is the goal?? There are arts that are much easier to acquire for fighting, So what is the goal? Buddhism? Daoism? Qi? Shen?
I am a white American involved in a ancient Chinese art.






.
Last edited by willie on Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Bao on Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:50 pm

willie wrote:I find that it's a very lonely art.


Amen to that.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:10 pm

willie wrote:
Bao wrote:Great Wille, very much appreciated. Good move. 8-)

oragami_itto wrote: Just before the movement occurs, there is a telegraph that it's about to happen. Is this intentional in the style or is it something you're working on?


Willie wrote an answer to you, but seems to have deleted it. I don't know why, it was pretty good and straightforward.


Thanks
I'm trying to figure out a way of talking about things indirectly, Why? Because some people are often offended with direct answers.
So I decided to remove the answers and let them figure out their own answers.


I, for one, appreciate direct answers.

I'm confused by that aspect of your form. I've seen it in some other Chen guys too and it mystifies me. It seems like telegraphing, a big neon sign that reads "I'M ABOUT TO DO SOME FAJIN SHIT, YA'LL", and it's the kind of thing that I, personally, try to avoid. I should be able to issue energy from anywhere in any direction without any sort of preparatory or "wind up" manuever to reveal my intention before it's realized.

But it looks intentional, so I'm wondering wtf it's about and why someone would want to train to move that way
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:40 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
I, for one, appreciate direct answers.

I'm confused by that aspect of your form. I've seen it in some other Chen guys too and it mystifies me. It seems like telegraphing, a big neon sign that reads "I'M ABOUT TO DO SOME FAJIN SHIT, YA'LL", and it's the kind of thing that I, personally, try to avoid. I should be able to issue energy from anywhere in any direction without any sort of preparatory or "wind up" manuever to reveal my intention before it's realized.

But it looks intentional, so I'm wondering wtf it's about and why someone would want to train to move that way


When a snake is about to strike, Are people still stupid enough to be there?
The moves can have great gathering or very small gathering.
Then in even higher levels of skill, You make other people wind you up and there is no way to stop it then, because they are the ones who did it to themselves.
It can also be completely hidden.
Last edited by willie on Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:59 pm

That's my point entirely, why train visible gathering movements to let them know the snake is about to strike?
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:40 pm

oragami_itto wrote:That's my point entirely, why train visible gathering movements to let them know the snake is about to strike?

The coiling is internal power. It just provides another option for producing different types of power.
Last edited by willie on Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Bao on Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:38 am

oragami_itto wrote:That's my point entirely, why train visible gathering movements to let them know the snake is about to strike?


Sometimes it’s good to over-act and over-do to learn certain mechanics. A lot of mechanics in modern Chen style is quite visible. But you could say something similar of large frame Yang as well, although the mechanics are usually not very intricate. But I do agree. One older definition of neijia or internal arts that I like is that strength/power is generated from stillness. So the generation should be all about internal movement No mechanics or gathering should be visible.
Last edited by Bao on Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby marvin8 on Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:10 am

oragami_itto wrote:That's my point entirely, why train visible gathering movements to let them know the snake is about to strike?

Excerpts from The Five Levels of Skill in Chen Style Taijiquan, http://www.shou-yi.org/taijiquan/5-levels-of-skill-in-chen-taijiquan:
Chen Xiao Wang translated by Tan Lee-Peng, Ph.D. wrote:The Third Level Kung Fu

'If you wish to do well in your quan (or form), you must practice to make your circle smaller.' The steps in practising Chen-style taijiquan involve progressing from mastering big circle to medium circle and from medium circle to small circle. . . .

The Fourth Level Kung Fu

Progressing from the stage with medium circle to that with small circle is required of the fourth level kung fu. . . .

The Fifth Level Kung Fu

The fifth level kung fu is the stage in which one moves from commanding small circle to commanding invisible circle, from mastering the form to executing the form invisibly. . . .
Last edited by marvin8 on Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:11 am

willie wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:That's my point entirely, why train visible gathering movements to let them know the snake is about to strike?

The coiling is internal power. It just provides another option for producing different types of power.

Thank you for the answer

Bao wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:That's my point entirely, why train visible gathering movements to let them know the snake is about to strike?


Sometimes it’s good to over-act and over-do to learn certain mechanics. A lot of mechanics in modern Chen style is quite visible. But you could say something similar of large frame Yang as well, although the mechanics are usually not very intricate. But I do agree. One older definition of neijia or internal arts that I like is that strength/power is generated from stillness. So the generation should be all about internal movement No mechanics or gathering should be visible.


That makes a certain kind of sense. We work from the large to the small relative to both space and time. I suppose this sort of slower and more pronounced wind up could be serving the same sort of function as large frame.

This stimulates some interesting thoughts honestly.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:11 am

marvin8 wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:That's my point entirely, why train visible gathering movements to let them know the snake is about to strike?

Excerpts from The Five Levels of Skill in Chen Style Taijiquan, nhttp://www.shou-yi.org/taijiquan/5-levels-of-skill-in-chen-taijiquan:
Chen Xiao Wang translated by Tan Lee-Peng, Ph.D. wrote:The Third Level Kung Fu

'If you wish to do well in your quan (or form), you must practice to make your circle smaller.' The steps in practising Chen-style taijiquan involve progressing from mastering big circle to medium circle and from medium circle to small circle. . . .

Yeah like that
The Fourth Level Kung Fu

Progressing from the stage with medium circle to that with small circle is required of the fourth level kung fu. . . .

The Fifth Level Kung Fu

The fifth level kung fu is the stage in which one moves from commanding small circle to commanding invisible circle, from mastering the form to executing the form invisibly. . . .


Yeah like that. :)
Last edited by oragami_itto on Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby charles on Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:05 am

oragami_itto wrote:Yeah like that. :)


But, what isn't translated is Chen Xiaowang's statement that most people practicing Chen TJQ today are at level 1.5ish or lower, including many current teachers. Very, very few achieve higher levels, such as 3, 4 or 5. So he said. (I didn't ask him where he is on his own scale of levels.)
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:18 am

charles wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:Yeah like that. :)


But, what isn't translated is Chen Xiaowang's statement that most people practicing Chen TJQ today are at level 1.5ish or lower, including many current teachers. Very, very few achieve higher levels, such as 3, 4 or 5. So he said. (I didn't ask him where he is on his own scale of levels.)


I think that's a pretty common perspective. Most folks are happy with the smallest of accomplishments and take that as true mastery.
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