External Sports Influence

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:02 am

oragami_itto wrote:
I think that's a pretty common perspective. Most folks are happy with the smallest of accomplishments and take that as true mastery.
there might be just a little bit more to that than meets the eye.
willie

 

Re: External Sports Influence

Postby RobP3 on Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:22 am

charles wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:Yeah like that. :)


But, what isn't translated is Chen Xiaowang's statement that most people practicing Chen TJQ today are at level 1.5ish or lower, including many current teachers. Very, very few achieve higher levels, such as 3, 4 or 5. So he said. (I didn't ask him where he is on his own scale of levels.)


Is that a fault of the students or the method?
"Remember, if your life seems dull and boring - it is" Derek & Clive
www.systemauk.com
RobP3
Wuji
 
Posts: 652
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:30 am
Location: UK

Re: External Sports Influence

Postby charles on Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:04 am

RobP3 wrote:Is that a fault of the students or the method?


THAT is the million dollar question. :-X
charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1619
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Bao on Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:13 am

marvin8 wrote:quote="Chen Xiao Wang translated by Tan Lee-Peng, Ph.D."]The Third Level Kung Fu

'If you wish to do well in your quan (or form), you must practice to make your circle smaller.' The steps in practising Chen-style taijiquan involve progressing from mastering big circle to medium circle and from medium circle to small circle. . . .

The Fourth Level Kung Fu

Progressing from the stage with medium circle to that with small circle is required of the fourth level kung fu. . . .

The Fifth Level Kung Fu

The fifth level kung fu is the stage in which one moves from commanding small circle to commanding invisible circle, from mastering the form to executing the form invisibly. . . .]


He sums up some of things very well. Though I am not very fond of these scales with a certain amount of numbers. There can be three levels or twenty, it wouldn't add to or take away anything from the meaning behind the article. Also, I don't think it's a clear progress from one thing to another, all kinds of human progress are more like over-lapping steps or levels. You carry some things with you from one step to another and other things you do can be developed faster and resembling further levels. Development is not like layers of different shades of grey neatly lined up one after another. Also, I do believe that you must bring with you what you learn in one step, like big circles. You must still have the potential of the large and bold if you want to truly accomplish the subtle or invisible. All of this is IMHO of course.

oragami_itto wrote:
charles wrote:
But, what isn't translated is Chen Xiaowang's statement that most people practicing Chen TJQ today are at level 1.5ish or lower, including many current teachers. Very, very few achieve higher levels, such as 3, 4 or 5. So he said. (I didn't ask him where he is on his own scale of levels.)


I think that's a pretty common perspective. Most folks are happy with the smallest of accomplishments and take that as true mastery.


I don't know. I think that there is very little good guidance available. Also, I believe that people don't accept change. Tai Chi demands you to develop through change. People just don't know how to take that kind of responsibility. I believe that a certain mindset is required, a certain attitude towards yourself and your body. (It's hard to explain what I mean, but if someone is interested there are some of these thoughts in my last blog post.)

RobP3 wrote:
charles wrote:
But, what isn't translated is Chen Xiaowang's statement that most people practicing Chen TJQ today are at level 1.5ish or lower, including many current teachers. Very, very few achieve higher levels, such as 3, 4 or 5. So he said. (I didn't ask him where he is on his own scale of levels.)


Is that a fault of the students or the method?


It's Chen Xiaowang's fault obviously... After all, it was he who invented the scale! :D
Last edited by Bao on Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:22 am, edited 4 times in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 7166
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:34 am

charles wrote:
RobP3 wrote:Is that a fault of the students or the method?


THAT is the million dollar question. :-X
probably what it would cost for somebody to dedicate their entire life teaching you. That is probably why they have disciples
Last edited by willie on Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
willie

 

Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:43 am

Bao wrote:One older definition of neijia or internal arts that I like is that strength/power is generated from stillness. So the generation should be all about internal movement No mechanics or gathering should be visible.

It would be very interesting to hear you try to explain that. I have come to realize that a lot of the sayings are not really feasible.
willie

 

Re: External Sports Influence

Postby windwalker on Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:00 pm

willie wrote:
Bao wrote:One older definition of neijia or internal arts that I like is that strength/power is generated from stillness. So the generation should be all about internal movement No mechanics or gathering should be visible.

It would be very interesting to hear you try to explain that. I have come to realize that a lot of the sayings are not really feasible.


To show it would be better ;)
基於開合、虛實與吞吐 的知覺運動
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 7664
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:09 pm

windwalker wrote:
willie wrote:
Bao wrote:One older definition of neijia or internal arts that I like is that strength/power is generated from stillness. So the generation should be all about internal movement No mechanics or gathering should be visible.

It would be very interesting to hear you try to explain that. I have come to realize that a lot of the sayings are not really feasible.


To show it would be better ;)
my old yang style teacher viewed reeling silk as charging the battery.
willie

 

Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Bao on Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:30 am

willie wrote:
Bao wrote:One older definition of neijia or internal arts that I like is that strength/power is generated from stillness. So the generation should be all about internal movement No mechanics or gathering should be visible.

It would be very interesting to hear you try to explain that. I have come to realize that a lot of the sayings are not really feasible.


I don't know what to explain or how. It's not about theory or intellectualizing. What's in the quote is from an old definition of Neijiquan. I like it because it resonates well with my own experience. The less you try to "do" and the more you just do without any kind of will to achieve anything, the more you can let the body take care of by itself. Doing without doing. Or doing without doing from a tranquil and empty state of heart and mind. This is what really works for me regardless it's push hands, performing a punch or anything. Even if I try to add the slightest little effort, or if I do something even a tiny bit artificial, all my best power and all my skill slips away. It feels weird and somewhat nonsensical when you put it in words, but it's the very practical way how I need to do this stuff.

Maybe this Kaufman guy is the best one to explain and show...

At 25. he starts showing something about just doing, about being and not trying to do.

https://youtu.be/3zcx61EGvZU
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 7166
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:44 am

Bao wrote:Even if I try to add the slightest little effort, or if I do something even a tiny bit artificial, all my best power and all my skill slips away.

Maybe this Kaufman guy is the best one to explain and show...
Bao that video was identical to every damn thing that I learned from my yang style teacher . What he was using was a very even body that had no blockage. Then it was coupled to Buddhist and Taoist theories. If we live in and move in the past we are too late and it is not real. If we try to do a technique then we are looking towards the future and it is also not real. So the only thing that was real was the very Split Second of what he called now or just in awareness. It actually had a lot of influence from Buddhism where there was no past and there is no future and the only thing is now therefore it is impossible to fit anything else into reality . So where do you go from there?
Last edited by willie on Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
willie

 

Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Bao on Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:49 am

willie wrote: So where do you go from there?


Punch a bag.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 7166
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: External Sports Influence

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:44 am

willie wrote:
Bao wrote:Even if I try to add the slightest little effort, or if I do something even a tiny bit artificial, all my best power and all my skill slips away.

Maybe this Kaufman guy is the best one to explain and show...
Bao that video was identical to every damn thing that I learned from my yang style teacher . What he was using was a very even body that had no blockage. Then it was coupled to Buddhist and Taoist theories. If we live in and move in the past we are too late and it is not real. If we try to do a technique then we are looking towards the future and it is also not real. So the only thing that was real was the very Split Second of what he called now or just in awareness. It actually had a lot of influence from Buddhism where there was no past and there is no future and the only thing is now therefore it is impossible to fit anything else into reality . So where do you go from there?


Just so I'm clear here.

You're saying that power is not generated by thinking of turning the joints of the body like gears?
"My own knowledge is shallow and I await corrections from the intelligent."
-Hermit of Jade Well
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1979
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Bao on Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:07 am

oragami_itto wrote:Just so I'm clear here.
You're saying that power is not generated by thinking of turning the joints of the body like gears?


Yes. It doesn't need to be so.

Or at least, you don't need to generate power by "turning the joints of the body like gears". That is for sure one method to generate power and good for practice. It's also good for things like throwing, take downs, qinna etc. But for punches, well, in the end, the only important point when you strike is how your structure is connected and supported upon impact. If you drive the punch with the body, you always have whole body movement. But then your speed of your fist depends on your body movement because it has no acceleration but itself. The problem is that you need some real good acceleration to do some real damage, so it's IMO better to be as soft as possible and go with the "hand leads, the body follows up" method, so you are completely relaxed and empty. But at the moment when the fist meet the opponent's body, you let your body align itself so the fist has maximum support from the body. Then upon impact the body is like what Willie said: you use "a very even body that has no blockage." You will have the acceleration and speed, as well as maximum support from the alignment of the body. (You can also use this method together with fajin for extra power, but that is a much more complicated story and that will not be exactly what most people associate with the term fajin)
Last edited by Bao on Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 7166
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: External Sports Influence

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:13 am

I was actually asking Willie. :D
"My own knowledge is shallow and I await corrections from the intelligent."
-Hermit of Jade Well
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1979
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Bao on Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:17 am

oragami_itto wrote:I was actually asking Willie. :D


You wrote directly after my post. I thought you had quoted my last post, didn't look closely enough.
Last edited by Bao on Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 7166
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

PreviousNext

Return to Been There Done That

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests