External Sports Influence

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Re: External Sports Influence

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:33 am

Bao wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:I was actually asking Willie. :D


You wrote directly after my post. I thought you had quoted my last post, didn't look closely enough.


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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby charles on Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:54 am

oragami_itto wrote:You're saying that power is not generated by thinking of turning the joints of the body like gears?


I'm not Willie, either, but generating "power" is not the result of a thought process.

As an aside, it is not the joints being "turned", it's what the joints connect that are being turned. The body has no gears: it is a metaphor, the use of imagery to guide one at some stages of one's practice. Once one has achieved what the imagery was intended to assist with, the imagery isn't particularly relevant beyond that point.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby everything on Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:46 am

willie wrote:
So where does taijiquan really fit in with modern times and in a modern world?


meditation.
art.
making you better at most other activities, not just MA or "fighting" or "self defense".
health.
keeping you nimble into old age.
who gives a shit about UFC. you can study muay thai all you want and you won't defeat Iron Mike anyway. so what.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:08 pm

everything wrote:
willie wrote:
So where does taijiquan really fit in with modern times and in a modern world?


meditation.
art.
making you better at most other activities, not just MA or "fighting" or "self defense".
health.
keeping you nimble into old age.
who gives a shit about UFC. you can study muay thai all you want and you won't defeat Iron Mike anyway. so what.

It's possible to defeat iron Mike with those high power leg kicks. Mike Tyson was and still is my favorite boxer especially in the early days
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:15 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
willie wrote:
Bao wrote:Even if I try to add the slightest little effort, or if I do something even a tiny bit artificial, all my best power and all my skill slips away.

Maybe this Kaufman guy is the best one to explain and show...
Bao that video was identical to every damn thing that I learned from my yang style teacher .


Just so I'm clear here.

You're saying that power is not generated by thinking of turning the joints of the body like gears?
I was just referring to a video that was posted and how it resembled my old style.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:21 pm

charles wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:You're saying that power is not generated by thinking of turning the joints of the body like gears?


I'm not Willie, either, but generating "power" is not the result of a thought process.

As an aside, it is not the joints being "turned", it's what the joints connect that are being turned. The body has no gears: it is a metaphor, the use of imagery to guide one at some stages of one's practice. Once one has achieved what the imagery was intended to assist with, the imagery isn't particularly relevant beyond that point.
the gears are not only on the inside, they are on the outside as well. A Golden Warrior wielding a spear and a shield. The Warriors Shield is energetic in nature and of infinite complexity. Mao Dun
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:55 pm

willie wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:
willie wrote:Bao that video was identical to every damn thing that I learned from my yang style teacher .


Just so I'm clear here.

You're saying that power is not generated by thinking of turning the joints of the body like gears?
I was just referring to a video that was posted and how it resembled my old style.


I was sort of inferring that you didn't watch the video there. When he got to the part about power from stillness he was all about thinking of the joints as gears. Sounds a lot like you talking about the same thing, yet you said he sounded like the methods you abandoned. So just trying to get some clarity there about what part of what he's talking about you walked away from
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:29 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
I was sort of inferring that you didn't watch the video there. When he got to the part about power from stillness he was all about thinking of the joints as gears. Sounds a lot like you talking about the same thing, yet you said he sounded like the methods you abandoned. So just trying to get some clarity there about what part of what he's talking about you walked away from


I watched the video from the point that Bao had mentioned. The video was very good and part of the whole picture, But no it does not
look like he has the necessary instructions to represent gears or any of the mechanics involved.
As far as abandoned? I don't think of it like that.

There is no power produced from stillness. What he is demonstrating there is just a very simple concept of not tensing up
and creating your own internal Qi blockage.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:41 pm

willie wrote:As far as abandoned? I don't think of it like that.

There is no power produced from stillness.


Pardon my misunderstanding, I thought I'd remembered you using precisely that term at some other time, but I do make mistakes.

As far as power from stillness, punch a brick wall and tell me it has no power. :D
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:43 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
willie wrote:As far as abandoned? I don't think of it like that.

There is no power produced from stillness.


Pardon my misunderstanding, I thought I'd remembered you using precisely that term at some other time, but I do make mistakes.

As far as power from stillness, punch a brick wall and tell me it has no power. :D


So you are saying that the brick wall is the source of power from stillness in your example?
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:56 pm

No, I'm saying that using incoming force against itself is an aspect of power from stillness.
If your fist and the entire load-bearing structure of your body at the moment of impact is stronger than the wall, you can bust it.
But if there is any part of it that is weaker than the wall, that's where you're going to break; the closest weak point to the point of impact.
Instead of fully expressing itself, the power gets jammed up in your body and destroys you. The more you bring, the more you hurt yourself.
Except instead of a brick wall, it's more like a thick rubber sheet stretched taught.
Brick walls are external style. So stiff they can break. :D
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:09 pm

oragami_itto wrote:No, I'm saying that using incoming force against itself is an aspect of power from stillness.
If your fist and the entire load-bearing structure of your body at the moment of impact is stronger than the wall, you can bust it.
But if there is any part of it that is weaker than the wall, that's where you're going to break; the closest weak point to the point of impact.
Instead of fully expressing itself, the power gets jammed up in your body and destroys you. The more you bring, the more you hurt yourself.
Except instead of a brick wall, it's more like a thick rubber sheet stretched taught.
Brick walls are external style. So stiff they can break. :D


O.K. I get what you're saying. I have a question for you then.
So you're saying that you have solved the age old question of stillness creating power and you are at least 95% sure that you are correct?
By the way, external styles are very effective and much easier to acquire, So perhaps it's not so smart underestimating.
Last edited by willie on Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:56 pm

I'm saying exactly what I'm saying. It's nothing I've discovered or invented, it's just the way I've found this art to work. Not as dramatically as taking a punch like a brick wall, which is way above my pay grade, but more like moving that rubber brick wall into the space where some part of somebody wants to go and giving them no choice but to bounce off or get stuck to it.

That's the paradox, isn't it? Repulsive AND attractive, rubber brick flypaper. I can't quite even wrap my head around it, but it works so the discussion is academic. If I'm lucky I'll die trying to figure it out.
Last edited by oragami_itto on Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:58 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
That's the paradox, isn't it? Repulsive AND attractive, rubber brick flypaper. I can't quite even wrap my head around it, but it works so the discussion is academic. If I'm lucky I'll die trying to figure it out.
no it is actually not the paradox. This is why I decided to go spend the money, thousands, I got sick of not knowing. My advice to anyone who is going to be spending a decade or two or whatever in these Arts, is to go to a lineage holder , or a disciple, or authentic senior students and pay them the money so that you have a true, undistorted, Crystal clear view of the entire art. You will never figure it out, you're not supposed to. I assure you that the material from these true sources is both unimaginable and unfathomable.
Last edited by willie on Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby windwalker on Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:12 pm

willie wrote:So you're saying that you have solved the age old question of stillness creating power and you are at least 95% sure that you are correct?
By the way, external styles are very effective and much easier to acquire, So perhaps it's not so smart underestimating.


I'd say the quote is wrong or maybe misunderstood. Stillness does not create power, it is said to over come movement.

The case for what are called external stylist vs taiji practitioners approaches, has been noted and explained according to the experience
of this person... a good read

" When practitioners of other kinds of boxing arts start to compete against opponents, even if they are unable to grasp the techniques they have been learning, there is nevertheless not the slightest confusion when they apply them. This is because during their ordinary training, their sideways thrusts and straight strikes become habitual, and then they only make use of these habits. Adding on top of that their vigor and directness, they are always capable of defeating opponents.


For practitioners of Taiji Boxing, this is not the case. During ordinary practice, slowness is the main principal, and not using any exertion is the key to it. However, the solo set from beginning to end is performed continuously without pause. Techniques such as PARRY, BLOCK, PUNCH and PUNCH TO THE CROTCH seem obvious, but when practicing them there is no interrupting of the energy, and so when applying them there will naturally be difficulty in having any power."

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... xperience/
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