RAW Tai Chi

[TaoJoannes]

Found this today, figured I'd troll for opinions, which I imagine will be diverse and amus- I mean informative.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ELCP6l0iGw

[middleway]

whats the point in it?? thats my only opinion ....

[RobP]

Awwww, I was expecting Robert Anton Wilson doing taiji....

[Bao]

its a bit scary to look at the comments ...

[Felipe Bidó]

Ewwww...

[TaoJoannes]

Well, that's disheartening.

I was expecting at least one person to be able to see the relatively simple mechanics at play. The guy is a junior player compared to most demos of this sort of skill, so the larger movements make it more obvious.

The point should be obvious, too. When you make contact with the opponent, you connect to their mass, receive a little of their energy and pop it back at them at a disadvantageous angle and a little extra energy for their trouble.

As far as I'm concerned, it's evidence of exactly the sort of odd skill the classics like to mention.

[Gary]

A little pushing at the the beginning. A farce from the mid point on.

[Bao]

Well, that's disheartening.

I was expecting at least one person to be able to see the relatively simple mechanics at play... As far as I'm concerned, it's evidence of exactly the sort of odd skill the classics like to mention.

are you joking or trolling? Maybe both? The simple machanics is a person running backwards at will. The movements of the defender must in some way correspond to the movements of the attacker. I am not saying that it is not possible to throw away someone far, but in this case, its pure bs. There can not only be "internal connection" from the defender, there must also be a physical, external connection between the movements of attacker and defender. And frankly, it is very easy to see when it is there (real) and not (fake).

Please compare a couple of clips and maybe you will understand what I mean by corresponing movements between the attacker and defender:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3Qex7QFLss
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8RNgsoyJv8

[cloudz]

hmm I think the clip is typical.

typical of what might happen if a certain drill is done a certain way. Typical when a person who is bigger stronger, has some training under their belt, has a little something somethin. as well as an ego and wants to show off a bit. Yea come and give me a ltlle push like this - go on give me a push. You're green, skinny and smaller than me - go on do it like this. That's how we do this drill. Remember this is just a drill - it's not fighting - remember that.

Typically his partner is inexperienced, probably has little or next to no training behind him (maybe none at all) smaller, weaker, being a good "uke" and doing as he's told. Not to mention in awe of his tough kung fu friend/ instructor, whatever.

Gary makes a food point halfway through, shit started to look fake. Kid obviously got some lessons in how to properly absorb and dissipate force, which also just happens to make you look like a play acting dick at the same time..

I don't know this line always have clips looking like this - must be just the way they train



Lets' see him/them do that fabulous looking shit in a push hands comp - I'm sure they have some in Oz.





Chris -

Didn't we do a similar drill with Serge...................................?



















ps. of course there's a point

[TaoJoannes]

Well, that's disheartening.

I was expecting at least one person to be able to see the relatively simple mechanics at play... As far as I'm concerned, it's evidence of exactly the sort of odd skill the classics like to mention.

are you joking or trolling? Maybe both? The simple machanics is a person running backwards at will. The movements of the defender must in some way correspond to the movements of the attacker. I am not saying that it is not possible to throw away someone far, but in this case, its pure bs. There can not only be "internal connection" from the defender, there must also be a physical, external connection between the movements of attacker and defender. And frankly, it is very easy to see when it is there (real) and not (fake).

Please compare a couple of clips and maybe you will understand what I mean by corresponing movements between the attacker and defender:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3Qex7QFLss
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8RNgsoyJv8

The "running backwards" I see more as the dummy's legs being in front of the center of gravity, the steps are an attempt to catch balance. In the curriculum I study, we learn the sparrow's hop before getting into these types of practices to reduce the chance of injury. That keeps the legs under the center of gravity and lets the body deal with the inertia as a unit, rather than the disconnected state that leads to backpedaling. On hardwood floors, that sort of backpedaling is an easy way to get your wrist broken. I've seen it happen.

The difference between that and the Zhaobao clip is that the player in the first clip is less highly skilled, or just isn't trying to completely uproot the (likewise relatively unskilled) demo dummy, and the Zhaobao player is demoing more than one energy in a different context, that of push hands, rather than an attempt to demonstrate an isolated skill/energy, which I would call an example of Ji (like a coin bouncing off a drum head) or receiving energy.

There's a brief snippet of my teacher demoing the way we formally train the energy in this clip at 1:38



Now, while I respect the push, pull, chinna, etc, this receiving energy is what I see the classics referring to by "the action of neutralizing and issuing become simultaneous" or however the hell they word it.

In other words, I'm less concerned with how the low-level player deals with the force, and more concerned with how the senior player is generating and controlling that force.

[Bao]

The "running backwards" I see more as the dummy's legs being in front of the center of gravity, the steps are an attempt to catch balance. In the curriculum I study, we learn the sparrow's hop before getting into these types of practices to reduce the chance of injury. That keeps the legs under the center of gravity and lets the body deal with the inertia as a unit, rather than the disconnected state that leads to backpedaling. On hardwood floors, that sort of backpedaling is an easy way to get your wrist broken. I've seen it happen.

First time I ever heard about "practicing" on jumping backwards was on this forum. I think it is quite strange. You really dont need your opponent to practice a "repelling backwards" technique. You can make anyone jumping backwards or "hop". Now I am not even talking about practice in class, where we have played with pushing techniques quite often.

There's a brief snippet of my teacher demoing the way we formally train the energy in this clip at 1:38

That was pretty good. Here you see the guy being lifted high up in a way that is impossible to fake or do by yourself.

[TaoJoannes]

First time I ever heard about "practicing" on jumping backwards was on this forum. I think it is quite strange. You really dont need your opponent to practice a "repelling backwards" technique. You can make anyone jumping backwards or "hop". Now I am not even talking about practice in class, where we have played with pushing techniques quite often.

It's not so much "jumping" backwards, as it is letting the feet come up and stay with the torso. Basically, when your torso gets a good shove, it's moving faster than your feet can keep up, so you detach them from the earth, let the legs fall back under the torso, and you maintain your balance.

Now, while I found it very easy to do and understand, even without the formal drills we use to burn it in, some folks had trouble getting the timing and feeling correct.

That was pretty good. Here you see the guy being lifted high up in a way that is impossible to fake or do by yourself.

I think the difference is just practice (which determines how much energy is preserved and transferred) and the angle of the rebounded force, with the original clip, he's not letting the dummy deliver his center so he can get under it, so when he issues it's more of a top-spin grounder than a bottom spin pop-up.

[Chris Fleming]

Another faker.

[Bär]

[cloudz]

The "running backwards" I see more as the dummy's legs being in front of the center of gravity, the steps are an attempt to catch balance.

yea.. also for the most part it's fairly square on, the position he get's himself into. But this guy in the first clip looks like he's really milking it, rather than 1. pushing properly 2. once pushed, posting a rear leg to root into and getting his top half forward. The effects are as much about his bad form than any good form on the part of the bigger guy..

In the curriculum I study, we learn the sparrow's hop before getting into these types of practices to reduce the chance of injury. That keeps the legs under the center of gravity and lets the body deal with the inertia as a unit, rather than the disconnected state that leads to backpedaling. On hardwood floors, that sort of backpedaling is an easy way to get your wrist broken. I've seen it happen.

what about what i mentioned above,

When you come in a and push why let legs get in front of you centre in the first place ?