Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Mon May 25, 2020 1:45 am

Michael wrote:Extensive collection of facts and sources on covid.

https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/

1. According to data from the best-studied countries and regions, the lethality of Covid19 is on average about 0.2%, which is in the range of a severe influenza (flu) and about twenty times lower than originally assumed by the WHO.

2. Even in the global “hotspots”, the risk of death for the general population of school and working age is typically in the range of a daily car ride to work. The risk was initially overestimated because many people with only mild or no symptoms were not taken into account.

3. Up to 80% of all test-positive persons remain symptom-free. Even among 70-79 year olds, about 60% remain symptom-free. Over 97% of all persons develop mild symptoms at most.

And 23 more.


I'm going to spare you all a point-by-point analysis of the text and statements posted on this website ;D . Some of them (some) are well-founded, but others are clearly skewed or false. As regards the source itself, here's a translation from the German-language Wikipedia article on the website "Swiss Policy Research":

"Swiss Policy Research (SPR) was known until its renaming in May 2020 as Swiss Propaganda Research [1]. It has been a website without an imprint since 2016, which describes itself as a "research and information project on geopolitical propaganda in Swiss and international media". [ 2] The publishers are anonymous, the funding unknown."
Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Propaganda_Research

The Wikipedia entry then lists a lot of criticism from various sources in Switzerland about specific issues SPR has falsely reported on.

The English-language Wikipedia presents a shorter article, also indicating that much of the 'scientific' information presented on SPR is "pseudo-scientific" and driven by other (political) agendas.
Read it for yourself if you like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Propaganda_Research

So: I'm not saying that all the information and arguments in the list referred to by Michael are hence, by definition, wrong. But some of them are contradicted by current medical/scientific consensus and the website as a whole is anonymous and has a very dubious track record. The confidence-inspiring name of the website would indicate an established, if not indeed respectable institute of some sort. But in fact it's a 'dark' set-up that could be someone in a cellar somewhere, or another larger player with a specific non-scientific agenda.
(And a few specific linguistic issues indicate it is probably not Swiss, either.)
Last edited by Giles on Mon May 25, 2020 1:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Steve James on Mon May 25, 2020 5:40 am

Switzerland is the home of the WHO. The Swiss policy is to follow WHO recommendations.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Steve James on Mon May 25, 2020 5:50 am

Hey, who agrees with stopping travel from Brazil? Will there be a rush of travelers wanting to come back that will cause another problem?
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Mon May 25, 2020 6:05 am

Researchers say 25 percent to 50 percent of people with COVID-19 are unaware they have the virus.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/ ... have-virus

In the case of Japanese citizens evacuated from Wuhan, China and tested for COVID-19, fully 30 percent of those infected were aymptomatic.

https://www.sciencealert.com/a-physicia ... c-covid-19

According to the CDC, 35% of all people with COVID-19 are asymptomatic. However, those individuals are still as infectious as people with symptoms.

https://health.ucdavis.edu/coronavirus/ ... onals.html

For COVID-19, data to date suggest that 80% of infections are mild or asymptomatic, 15% are severe infection,
requiring oxygen and 5% are critical infections, requiring ventilation. These fractions of severe and critical infection
would be higher than what is observed for influenza infection.

https://www.who.int/docs/default-source ... entilation.

30-80% according to different sites are asymptomatic.

makes this virus different in attempting to control or mitigate something that for many people
they will not know they have it, in attempting to protect those in the high risk groups that it does affect.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Steve James on Mon May 25, 2020 6:37 am

Especially today, let's remember one high risk group.

Half of New Jersey’s Covid-19 fatalities are linked to nursing homes. Nowhere has the devastation been starker than at one built for members of the military.

"The Whole Place Is Sick Now’: 74 Deaths at a Home for U.S. Veterans"
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/10/nyre ... -home.html

'It’s horrific': coronavirus kills nearly 70 at Massachusetts veterans' home

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... diers-home

As veterans die from coronavirus, Memorial Day has different mood

https://www.timesfreepress.com/news/bre ... od/523737/

At least 550 veterans have died at state-run veterans homes, but with 28 states not reporting a toll, the real number is unknown, Vietnam ...

VA reported more than 1,000 coronavirus deaths. But the actual veteran toll is much higher.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... rc404=true

Thank them for their service by keeping them alive --by trying one's best not to spread the disease.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Mon May 25, 2020 6:57 am

Giving people information allows them
to understand risk giving them freedom to make their own decisions.

Protecting themselves.

Vets more than most understand this.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Mon May 25, 2020 7:36 am

@Windwalker

Thanks for the selection of useful links to scientifically solid websites. :D
Last edited by Giles on Mon May 25, 2020 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Michael on Mon May 25, 2020 11:36 am

Giles, the WHO, CDC, and Fauci do not even have consensus with themselves from week to week on basic principles, while extremely qualified doctors successfully treating patients, as well as the highest caliber researchers, do not have consensus with each other on the issues related to covid. So please do not take this attitude that there is a consensus to follow and that you can decipher it and other can not, while using wiki articles to attack reputation.

Be more specific with the particulars. You're not the net nanny here. And remember this is the crazy thread where people are allowed to figure things out for themselves. :)
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Bao on Mon May 25, 2020 12:23 pm

"So please do not take this attitude that there is a consensus to follow..."

An Italian doctor expressed it well: "Covid-19 has no math."

Just because it's so darn unpredictable makes it all even more important to take it seriously.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Steve James on Mon May 25, 2020 12:25 pm

The CDC is run by the administration; the WHO is an international agency. Nope, there's no consensus --particularly in the sense of universal agreement. So, for example,

The federal Department of Veterans Affairs has been giving 1,300 veterans hydroxychloroquine as a treatment for the coronavirus since late March — even though the drug has not been proven to be effective against the illness and may even trigger fatal heart problems.

In a study of 100,000 patients with COVID-19 published Friday in the medical journal The Lancet, patients who received hydroxychloroquine had a “significantly higher risk of death” compared to those who were not given the drug. “We were unable to confirm a benefit of hydroxychloroquine” on in-hospital outcomes for COVID-19, the researchers concluded.

Bing COVID-19 tracker: Latest numbers by country and state

An April study of veterans who were given the drug — relentlessly hawked by President Donald Trump — produced similar findings.

Veterans Affairs Secretary Robert Wilkie said in a letter Friday to Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.) that despite mounting concerns about the drug, the VA will continue to use hydroxychloroquine for veterans.


Yet,

GENEVA, May 25 (Reuters) - The World Health Organization has suspended testing the malaria drug hydroxychloroquine in COVID-19 patients due to safety concerns, WHO Director General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus said on Monday.

Hydroxycholoroquine has been touted by Donald Trump and others as a possible treatment for the disease caused by the novel coronavirus. The U.S. President has said he was taking the drug to help prevent infection.

"The executive group has implemented a temporary pause of the hydroxychloroquine arm within the Solidarity trial while the safety data is reviewed by the data safety monitoring board," Tedros told an online briefing.

He said the other arms of the trial - a major international initiative to hold clinical tests of potential treatments for the virus - were continuing.

The WHO has previously recommended against using hydroxychloroquine to treat or prevent coronavirus infections, except as part of clinical trials.

Dr. Mike Ryan, head of the WHO emergencies program, said the decision to suspend trials of hydroxychloroquine had been taken out of "an abundance of caution."


So, yeah, people should make up their own minds. Personally, if I thought the threat of the virus was overblown, I couldn't imagine taking any drug to prevent it. If it comes down to making a choice between who to believe when it comes to my own health, I would favor the cautious approach.

Btw, I haven't seen Fauci in a while. Though, I heard that the president isn't taking hydrochloroquine anymore, if he ever was.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Mon May 25, 2020 12:57 pm

Michael wrote:Giles, the WHO, CDC, and Fauci do not even have consensus with themselves from week to week on basic principles, while extremely qualified doctors successfully treating patients, as well as the highest caliber researchers, do not have consensus with each other on the issues related to covid. So please do not take this attitude that there is a consensus to follow and that you can decipher it and other can not...

True. But they disagree with each other on the basis that, generally speaking, they try to seek workable truths on the basis of evidence and peer review. Not on the basis of claims like "it's just a flu" (for the 1358th time), or "exosomes!!", or "Bill Gates is trying to dominate the world".

while using wiki articles to attack reputation.

I haven't attacked the reputation of anyone here on RSF. If you want to formulate it that way, I just attacked the reputation of "Swiss Policy Research" as a credible science-based source, which it actually claims to be. And I stand by that.

Be more specific with the particulars.

Ah, well, after a few posts where I was very specific with particulars, I felt I'd done enough of that. ;)

You're not the net nanny here.

Seriously true. I'll let that rebuke stand, although that doesn't mean I'll always shut up. :)

And remember this is the crazy thread where people are allowed to figure things out for themselves. :)

Well, we don't actually have a "serious" coronavirus thread on RSF (the other one being about local what-is-life-like reports), so I'm taking this as the 'anything goes' thread. Should we start a new (terribly boring? ;) ) thread for serious stuff?

People are still allowed to figure things out for themselves, both passive readers and active participants. If I say I believe something is bullshit (and for this and this reason), it's still only my opinion. No one's being sanctioned, thrown off RSF, doxed, arrested... It's true that my attitude is/has been 'if seriously unfounded or crazy stuff is put forward as 'truth' about something that is LITERALLY a matter of life and death, possibly influencing people in their life decisions or political decisions, then I'm motivated to try to counteract it with evidence-based stuff'. I mean, it's not "did aliens build the pyramids?" that we're all talking about here. But then again, a man with self-appointed mission... :P ...am I going to far in this direction? Probably one minor symptom of my own coronacrisis (and EVERYONE has their own version of coronacrisis, whatever their personality, ideology or politics). And I'll be honest, when I see significantly more people than before all over the world, both 'high-placed' and not so 'high', starting to go kinda seriously pre-Enlightenment in their thought processes and actions... well, it scares me on one level. Don't be scared, Giles, just breath deeply and do more tai chi... ;)

We'll see how things turn out. (To be interepreted on any level you like).

And - truly - peace! :)
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Coronavirus "conspiracy"?

Postby .Q. on Mon May 25, 2020 1:57 pm

While looking at China's economic analysis I found this vid which showed various info on the novel coronavirus which seems fairly serious because the main sources are from China's gov official documents and news source BEFORE their announcement of the outbreak.


Obviously I have no way to verify legitimacy regarding pictures of official documents, but they also listed some web pages and I was surprised I could find them.
This is official Wuhan gov website showing on 2019-09-26 they were simulating the discovery of a participant at the upcoming military sporting event diagnosed w/ novel coronavirus.
模拟了旅客通道发现1例行李物品核辐射超标的处置过程,以及机场口岸通道发现1例新型冠状病毒感染的处置全过程
http://www.hubei.gov.cn/zhuanti/2018zt/ ... 3604.shtml

I also found the official CCTV news on April of 2018 that mentioned the Wuhan Virology lab's discovery of a new novel coronavirus from bats that infected pigs and caused their deaths. BTW: If you watch this on a mobile device you don't have to install Flash.
http://tv.cctv.com/2018/04/05/VIDE9RUDy ... 0405.shtml

I don't think this proves the novel coronavirus was spreading in Sep of 2019 (also, the coronavirus affecting the pigs may not be the one killing people right now, despite both being called novel coronavirus). It's possible that due to discovery of the coronavirus in 2018 they knew they had to prepare in case of a leak so they were simulating proper handling of it in Sep 2019. However, that pretty much confirms they knew of how dangerous it was WAY before they were admitting it.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Michael on Mon May 25, 2020 2:34 pm

Peace to you, my friend.

Also, I was talking about using wiki articles to impugn the reputation of the web site, not anyone here.

'if seriously unfounded or crazy stuff is put forward as 'truth' about something that is LITERALLY a matter of life and death,


Oh, thanks you. I was just about to nebulize this bleach and inject some 10% concentrate H202 into my pineal gland, but you pulled me back from the brink. :D

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Last edited by Michael on Mon May 25, 2020 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Peacedog on Mon May 25, 2020 3:00 pm

So is this where the thread devolves into the standard "my style is better than your style" RSF rant?

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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Michael on Mon May 25, 2020 11:19 pm

Style warz are lame. Something more like this perhaps.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrJ2c0F_pIs
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