Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby everything on Wed May 13, 2020 6:34 am

Trick wrote:
everything wrote:
Giles wrote:Gotcha. If I can walk around the corner at a well-timed moment and get Fedor to step back in startlement, then with judicious editing I've got an epic GIF. That should look just great on my tai chi website. ;D


lol where are those Chuck Norris jokes to apply to Fedor? Fedor doesn't step back in startlement.

https://www.arcamax.com/healthandspirit ... /s-2334735 C.Norris is no joke


great to see some sanity and sound advice from a popular celebrity!
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Fri May 15, 2020 3:05 am

More under the heading of not-crazy shit...

Another article grabbed and Google translated (then tweaked) from Spiegel Online. I think it's a fairly clear and not too technical account of the prospects for a workable SARS Cov-2 vaccine. What the possibilities and problems are in terms of medicine, technology, finance and politics. Some may still find the article too long but I didn't feel I could usefully cut out bits.

My own thoughts regarding the question "will a workable vaccine ever be produced at all?"
--> Many people point to the fact that a vaccine for the common cold (also a coronavirus) and a vaccine for HIV (a retrovirus, not a coronavirus) still haven't been produced, after all these years. That's true, and there is no guarantee that a SARS Cov-2 vaccine will succeed, but the need for such a virus is being seen as a priority in the way that these other potential vaccines never were. And correspondingly, huge resources in terms of facilities, researcher working hours and money are being directed at the problem in a way that the common cold and even HIV never attracted. The common cold is a bummer and certainly causes a (minor) degree of economic damage, and occasional deaths if a person's health is already severely compromised, but in the huge majority of cases it's basically just an annoyance. HIV, as we know, is far more deadly but even without a vaccine there are, nowadays, many very effective methods of prevention: avoid having 'unprotected' sex with different partners, or use condoms generally; don't share needles; at-risk health workers use protective measures; hospitals screen donated blood supplies. Applying behavioural changes / life decisions like these will ensure that your chance of getting HIV nowadays is pretty much zero. And even when HIV was more rampant back then, it wasn't really (generally perceived as) the kind of threat that could infect and even kill just about anyone going about their daily, 'sensible' business. So no huge pressure in the Western world to develop a vaccine. The situation was and to some extent still is more dramatic in parts of Africa, but hey, if it doesn't seriously affect the rich countries then it's not really a problem... :P

So on that basis, pointing to the non-appearance of vaccines for some other viral diseases is not necessarily a strong argument.


.............................................................................

Why vaccine production is so difficult

The world is hoping for a vaccine to fight the corona virus. Which candidates are promising? Who pays for it? And why does development take so long? Answers to the most important questions.

How many potential vaccines are currently under investigation?

As of May 11, 2020, the WHO lists 110 candidate vaccinesagainst Sars-CoV-2 that are being researched and tested by different pharmaceutical companies around the world. There are also projects by universities that have never made a vaccine themselves. Ten of these are already in phase I or II of the so-called clinical trial. That means: they are already being tested on humans.

What are the requirements for vaccine approval?

In order for the Paul Ehrlich Institute in Germany to approve a potential vaccine for a clinical trial in humans, a manufacturer must first submit data that the substance has already been tested sufficiently preclinically - for example in animal experiments. Then the vaccine must be clinically tested in three phases:

Phase I: The vaccine is given to a small group of healthy volunteers. It is observed whether the agent reaches the target area in the body and there are no acute side effects.

Phase II: Only if phase I was successful can the vaccine be administered to a larger number of participants in the phase II, which come from the risk group. In the case of Covid-19, this would be the elderly or people with previous illnesses. In this phase it is checked whether the vaccine works, i.e. prevents the disease and which dosage is suitable.

Phase III: Afterwards, the vaccine can be tested on a representative group of volunteers - up to ten thousand test subjects are vaccinated. In phase III the effectiveness, safety and dosage of the vaccination are confirmed. Adverse events, such as a particularly severe course of the disease due to the administration of the vaccine, can thus be observed and excluded.

What basic approaches are currently in clinical trials?

mRNA vaccines
Two of the ten companies whose candidate vaccines are already in clinical trials - the German pharmaceutical company Biontech and the US Moderna - are researching so-called mRNA vaccines. Messenger RNA are messengers in the human body that carry information about the blueprint of proteins to the cell machinery, where the proteins are built.

In the case of an mRNA vaccine against Sars-CoV-2, the blueprints for a shell protein of the virus are injected into the human body so that the cells produce it. As a result, the body recognizes them as foreign and produces, among other things, antibodies in a precisely tailored defense process. When in contact with the real virus, the immune system can quickly activate this protective patrol and eliminate the pathogens.

So far, not a single mRNA vaccine has been approved, and there is a lack of experience worldwide. "The fact that RNA vaccines have not yet been approved is not necessarily due to the fact that the technology is bad, but depends on various factors," said the chairman of the German Standing Vaccination Commission (Stiko), Thomas Mertens, in an SPIEGEL interview. It is also a question of money, because research into new technologies has to be financed.
Tried and tested models for the mass production of mRNA vaccines are also lacking. However, experts rely on the fact that mRNAs could be produced relatively easily because they are not complex biomolecules.

Inactivated virus (dead vaccine)
The Chinese companies Sinovac and Sinopharm are testing the safety and effectiveness of so-called dead vaccines in three institutes in the fight against Covid-19. The Sars-CoV-2 viruses are isolated from infected persons and propagated in cell cultures that are approved for the production of vaccines. Then they are chemically and physically inactivated so that they can no longer reproduce and injected into humans. The immune system recognizes the inactivated viruses as foreign and produces antibodies. Many important vaccines are based on this principle, for example against tetanus or hepatitis B.

Vector vaccines
Using genetic engineering, researchers can "disguise" harmless viruses as the novel corona virus. To do this, they exchange certain proteins on their surface for typical components of the pathogen. These so-called vector viruses ‘persuade’ the body that it is infected, but they do not make you sick. The idea: Those who are vaccinated with such vector viruses then form antibodies that also protect against a real infection. The first approved Ebola vaccine works like this.

However, vector vaccines are "regulated, genetically modified medicines, which are associated with a long approval process," writes the "Science Media Center" (SMC). "Above all, the risk potential of the vector used must be explored."
In the fight against Sars-CoV-2, the University of Oxford and the Chinese company Cansino Biological are already testing their candidate vaccines in humans in the first two clinical phases.

DNA vaccines
In another approach, which the US company Inovio is already investigating in humans, a DNA section is introduced into human cells using a bacterial plasmid. This DNA sequence stimulates the immune system to produce antibodies. However, this usually requires potentiators that can have undesirable side effects. "So far, DNA vaccines have only been approved in veterinary medicine," writes the SMC.

Why is this all taking so long?

It usually takes more than a decade to get a new vaccine ready for the market. Because it is later to be administered to healthy people, it has to undergo particularly strict security checks. Even under the very optimistic assumption that one or more candidate vaccines will have successfully completed the approval process by the end of the year, there are likely to be problems providing people with comprehensive coverage. Because the vaccines have to be mass-produced. However, there is no capacity for this.
Assuming that people would need two doses, there is a need for almost eight billion doses of vaccine if half of the world's population is to be vaccinated. Experts speak of the greatest challenges in the history of vaccine manufacture. Giant companies like Sanofi are currently able to produce one billion doses a year - across all of their vaccine groups. The other vaccines would have to continue to be manufactured - and bottlenecks have always been a problem across the industry, even with standard vaccines.

Who pays for vaccine development?

The vaccine business has been dominated by four manufacturers for years: GlaxoSmithKline, Merck & Co., Pfizer and Sanofi. Unlike pharmaceuticals, Europe is a leader in vaccine research; 80 percent of the production also takes place in Europe. It’s unlikely there will be many new providers appearing because the market entry hurdles are very high. The high investment costs for setting up production facilities are responsible for this. The business with vaccines is lucrative for the remaining suppliers: many have announced that they will increase their production capacities as much as possible.

The current problem is that preparations have to be made for the production without knowing exactly what vaccine will ultimately be produced. The pharmaceutical industry is therefore demanding cost sharing and promises from politicians to guarantee certain purchase quantities.

Vaccine development is currently also being promoted through product development partnerships; these are alliances that organize joint projects by foundations, government and aid organizations, research groups and companies. In this way, active ingredients can be developed that would not be economically feasible for a single company. Germany is involved in the CEPI project through the Federal Ministry of Research.

And who will get the vaccine first?

To eradicate the virus, as many as possible of the 7.8 billion people worldwide would have to be vaccinated. With earlier epidemics such as swine flu, richer countries were always first vaccinated, while the poorer countries received it much later. This situation should be prevented this time around, politicians, the World Health Organization and pharmaceutical experts demand. "To firstly completely vaccinate the population in one country and not in other countries at all: that’s inconceivable in the sense of global solidarity," said Paul Cichutek, head of the Paul Ehrlich Institute, at the beginning of May to SPIEGEL.

A promise by the French pharmaceutical manufacturer Sanofi to the US government to grant the United States special rights when ordering vaccines against the novel coronavirus is being criticized. Sanofi's justification for the exception is that the Americans were willing to take financial risks in vaccine development.

It could be conceivable that there will be further geopolitical disputes: Countries that have been heavily involved in the financing could require that they have a prerogative to the first wave of vaccine deliveries. In any case, it can be expected that not all people can be vaccinated immediately if and when a vaccine becomes available because the capacities will not be sufficient.

Pandemic plans provide for medical personnel and risk groups to be vaccinated first. However, other system-relevant professions such as police officers or registrars (they must still be able to certify the death of people in the event of a pandemic) could also be among the first recipients.

Source: Spiegel Online, 15 May 2020
https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/coronavirus-was-die-impfstoffherstellung-so-schwierig-macht-a-f1365987-0a22-4358-be3c-b3d15e9bc0ad
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Trick on Fri May 15, 2020 6:28 am

Don’t worry, they will find something “convincingly”(for most) to inject us with...
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Fri May 15, 2020 7:22 am

Thank you for the input, Trick, now don't you worry either. :)
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Fri May 15, 2020 7:39 am

50 to 80% are asymptomatic from information sources I’ve looked at .

If a vaccine is developed I would think it would be hard to tell whether it was effective or not.

In the US In many states,
if the children are not vaccinated they are not allowed to attend public schools.
In certain industries if you’re not vaccinated you’re not allowed to work in those industries.
It may be a case that one is not to be required to be vaccinated against this virus,
but it might become a requirement for some jobs .
Last edited by windwalker on Fri May 15, 2020 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Fri May 15, 2020 7:52 am

The big problem with this virus unlike other viruses as one could have it and not know it.
What happens if a vaccine is developed or this become the new requirement in order to work on a job , or engage in social activities that normally would not have such a requirement.

For example:
Being allowed to be a passenger in a plane

They ask a series of questions at the boarding gate.
one of the questions they might ask,
when’s the last time you were vaccinated?
Last edited by windwalker on Fri May 15, 2020 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby roger hao on Fri May 15, 2020 7:57 am

The Spiegel article -

HIV is #1 killer of women of reproductive age but the fact that we don't
have a vaccine can be overlooked because you can use a condom or abstain.
Don't worry because in the USA the same guy that has based his entire career
on HIV vaccine is now in charge of the SARs 2 vaccine.
"life decisions like these will ensure that your chance of getting HIV nowadays is pretty much zero."
Same can be said of SARs2.
and..................just like using condoms we can continue shelter in place until
he comes up with the vaccine. With the vaccine as a hope we can continue by tracking
and controlling the populations every move and interaction.
You are all fine - speaking to my older brothers - with the vaccine being tested
on the elderly?( because hey - how long do they have anyway especially considering fake models we can go to showing that SARs 2 is killing them already ) before being tested as a true qualification? After injecting in monkeys then.............
"Phase II: Only if phase I was successful can the vaccine be administered to a larger number of participants in the phase II, which come from the risk group. In the case of Covid-19, this would be the elderly or people with previous illnesses. In this phase it is checked whether the vaccine works, i.e. prevents the disease and which dosage is suitable."
I personally do not want to be designated as part of a risk group due to
an arbitrary stamp ( age ) and then become a guinea pig for a fake vaccine.
Last edited by roger hao on Fri May 15, 2020 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Fri May 15, 2020 8:02 am

windwalker wrote:If a vaccine is developed I would think it would be hard to tell whether it was effective or not.


@Windwalker
Before a vaccine is put into 'general service', it's tested thoroughly for its degree of effectiveness and possible side-effects. That, among other things, is exactly what the article describes.
Public health authorities don't throw a virus out into the world and then see whether it works or not. What is possible is that even the most effective of the vaccine options, assuming that several are on the table at some point in the future, may not provide full protection against infection and illness. Vaccines against current strains of flu tend to provide protection to around 60%, if I remember rightly. So probably no magic bullet in the future - although also not impossible. But even a 60% protection among vaccinated persons would be a huge factor in keeping the virus under control, stopping it running out of control.

I would suppose there is an increased risk of a rapidly developed and tested vaccine (also) having negative effects in some cases. Which is why ALL vaccines go through the development regime described in the article. That's a major dilemma, for a new vaccine needed NOW. Or even better, yesterday. But neither pharma companies nor health authorities are going to brush this risk under the carpet, and just throw out an untested vaccine. If they prove seriously negligent in testing, also for potential harmful effects, then that would be a huge boomerang. Even a big and (possibly) greedy pharma corporation isn't aiming to make a quick buck and then duck off to some state with no extradition procedures. Stupid they aren't, in that respect.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Fri May 15, 2020 8:15 am

In the 70s while in the military we administered the. H1n1 vaccine developed for that virus.
It was discontinued in the same year. Lots of issues with it .

Some seem to have issues with big companies.

It’s the public driving the politicians to drive the manufactures to
whatever is felt to be needed at the time.

h1n1 virus if you had it you had it.
With this virus there’s a large group of people that may have it and not know it.

Because of this there are a lot of actions being initiated in an attempt to find out if one may have it not showing any signs of having it.

In the US in the name of the virus there are a lot of actions being taken or contemplated that are against basic constitutional rights of its citizens.
Last edited by windwalker on Fri May 15, 2020 9:23 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Fri May 15, 2020 8:40 am

You make some important points, Roger. Some sound and some less so.

roger hao wrote: HIV is #1 killer of women of reproductive age but the fact that we don't
have a vaccine can be overlooked because you can use a condom or abstain.

You're right in quoting this HIV fact, and I overlooked it. It is absolutely scandalous that this should be so (chiefly in Africa). As I noted in general terms at the end of my own section, before the article, major health problems/issues like this are ignored or neglected much more if they chiefly affect "undeveloped" (and thus poorer) countries. Nonetheless, my argument stands up: whether it is based on a moral attitude or not, far greater resources are already being devoted to finding Covid-19 vaccines than were ever devoted to finding an HIV vaccine. (More resources should be devoted to HIV, too!!). And these greater resouces increase the chances of finding one or more such Covid-19 vaccines.

Don't worry because in the USA the same guy that has based his entire career on HIV vaccine is now in charge of the SARs 2 vaccine.

However one feels about Fauci, your first statement about him is not really accurate. He is not a 'failure', if that's what you're implying:
"Fauci is one of the pioneers in researching immune regulation in humans. He managed to identify several immunoregulatory factors. Fauci was also able to describe the normal function of B lymphocytes. His research has led to successful therapies for previously regularly fatal autoimmune diseases. Fauci identified cellular and molecular mechanisms of HIV expression in chronically and latently infected cells, respectively."
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Fauci
and your second statement is inaccurate: he is "not in charge of the SARs 2 vaccine". Firstly, there is no such vaccine at the moment, and secondly, as described in the article, very many institutions, companies and organizations all over the world are working on development. Neither Fauci nor anyone else is in charge of development. What was your source for this statement?

"life decisions like these will ensure that your chance of getting HIV nowadays is pretty much zero."

--> I should have course have made explicit here too: "in the rich, Western countries!". Other parts of the world are often quite different, but these other parts are mostly not where vaccines are developed or where the most influential, able-to-pay customers for these are. Which is, once again, immoral - but I was arguing something else, not condoning this situation.

Same can be said of SARs2.
and..................just like using condoms we can continue shelter in place until he comes up with the vaccine.

Um, are you being serious here? Using a condom for sex with frequently changing partners (which doesn't apply to me, just by the way) is not something that otherwise affects your life, livelihood, happiness and the economy in major ways. I guess, anyway...
Sure, actually you're being sarcastic, but I can't really figure out what you actually want to say, creating a bridge from HIV to SARS2... ???

With the vaccine as a hope we can continue by tracking and controlling the populations every move and interaction.

Yes, yes, if that's what you think. I'll regard that as off-topic right here and now.

"Phase II: Only if phase I was successful can the vaccine be administered to a larger number of participants in the phase II, which come from the risk group. In the case of Covid-19, this would be the elderly or people with previous illnesses. In this phase it is checked whether the vaccine works, i.e. prevents the disease and which dosage is suitable."
I personally do not want to be designated as part of a risk group due to an arbitrary stamp ( age ) and then become a guinea pig for a fake vaccine.


I think you misunderstand the article here. Phase II testing is part of the clinical trials. Which means selected people giving their informed consent to taking part in said trials. "A larger number" doesn't mean some kind of random/uncontrolled/secret testing among the general populace. Nobody taking part in such Covid-19 vaccine tests against their will or without them knowing about it.

That aside, the older you are, the more at risk you are. Statistically speaking, but in practice not always of course. In that case there's no "arbitrary stamp", it's a medical fact. I'm not far off 60, so to some extent I'm more at risk, too. Becoming a "guinea pig" against your will is something totally different.

And finally, you talk about "a fake vaccine". That seems tendentious. What fake vaccine, as opposed to a real vaccine? What do you mean by this term, in this context?

Anyway, thanks for you input. :)
Last edited by Giles on Fri May 15, 2020 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby roger hao on Fri May 15, 2020 10:17 am

Giles -
You really seem to have your rose tinted glasses on about the vaccine
development and vaccine testing. I can't even begin to help you or others that have such a superficial view towards what you call secret testing. Vaccine testing has a history of abuse.
Read up on the protocols of organ donor and you will see where I am coming from - vague wording like "a larger number" to you is a limit - to me is no limit.
The number of elderly in USA is over 50 million. If phase II was a law you could not be prosecuted for injecting every one of them. Note also the word volunteer is omitted in Phase II. So does Dr vaccine creep into the nursing homes - secretly injecting everyone?
Fauci has failed to produce an HIV vaccine - that is what I am saying.
Are you saying he is not the leader in the US task force for vaccine development?
Here is my Phase II in the vaccine testing -
Inject Bill Gates and his team and all members of Congress and study it's effects.
Windwalker's point about the difficulty in determining the vaccine's effectiveness becomes more true if tested in a group that has pre-existing ailments.
We have seen this already in the attempt to tabulate Covid's spread.
roger hao

 

Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby roger hao on Fri May 15, 2020 10:18 am

How many people worldwide will be killed by the vaccine?
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby everything on Fri May 15, 2020 11:28 am

as far as testing goes, antibody tests are already available direct to consumer.

if you think you may have had covid-19 and are symptom free and want to find out, you can get a test (w/o doctor's orders):
https://www.labcorp.com/antibody-testing

I don't know who should do this, but I guess if you work with a higher risk population, it seems like a good idea.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Fri May 15, 2020 11:36 am

The Crazy has really been let out of the bag. -argh-
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby vadaga on Fri May 15, 2020 12:49 pm

Giles, I really appreciate the well-researched posts. Thanks for those.
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