Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

[wiesiek]

ok,
you free to take any kind of vaccine

its opinion, knowledge is yours

[Finny]

lol. Antivaxxers.. always with the vague, light on facts paranoia

[wiesiek]

not quite, Finny
funny thing is, that lot of humans know some small part of something, and shouting eureka in the same time;
but
everybody are entitled for opinion, in mean time, of course

[wiesiek]

I have the question :
WHY in the US, we have the biggest rate of deaths connected to the covid?
Where US has the highest contemporary medicine level.
Is somebody there, even put such q. on the table?

and connected to the vaccination, in general, question:
why in the US, % of autistic children is grooving up rapidly?
BY any means, there is no proof to connect it with vaccination.
However, there is no proof to disconnect it at all, either.
Interesting, nobody like to pay for serious research on this field...
In the same time, amount of really experienced MD docs, are let`s say : "not quite sure" is bigger, than ever.
It is against official line, of course,
so
if you don`t have access to their "inner circle", all what you can get, is just official lines, for quite understandable reason -we are humans flock,in general, and acting accordingly.

[Giles]

Wiesiek, you are also entitled to your opinion, yes. And from many of your posts I believe you're a nice guy which whom it would be fun to train and to drink a beer together. But if you're going to push the old vaccination/autism connection here, I'm going to counter it. Because I think that especially at this time, propagating anti-vaxxer mythologies is an irresponsible and harmful thing.

By any means, there is no proof to connect it with vaccination.
However, there is no proof to disconnect it at all, either.

There is no proof to connect the popular online game "Weekend" with the rising consumption of opioids the USA.
But there is no proof to 'disconnect' it either. So is it time to ban Weekend and save the USA from continuation of the opioid crisis...?

Interesting, nobody like to pay for serious research on this field...

Here, just for you, is some serious research in this field:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2908388/
No need to read it all if it's too much, just the first page down to before "Table 1" should be sufficient.
Also the reminder that the original and only study indicating a link between the MMR vaxx and autism was the Wakefield study, long since demonstrated to be methodological junk and involving 8 (!) children.

In the same time, amount of really experienced MD docs, are let`s say : "not quite sure" is bigger, than ever.
It is against official line, of course, so if you don`t have access to their "inner circle", all what you can get, is just official lines, for quite understandable reason -we are humans flock,in general, and acting accordingly.

Wiesiek, really... That's conspiracy theory 101 talk. By the same logic you can also say that the great majority of anti-vaxxers or adherents of other conspiracy theories are also 'humans flocking together, acting accordingly'. Many of these people too have their 'official line', their own vested interests. They may not form an overall majority, but it's just as much a group belief or 'orthodoxy' within their own circuit. So neither pro-vaxx or anti-vaxx views can be confirmed or discredited on the basis of how many people hold them, or whether you think people might have 'other' reasons for their expressed opinions. So all you can fall back on here is actual evidence - facts that can be subjected to analysis, that can proved or disproved (at least provisionally). And when it comes to this, it's pretty clear: there is no credible basis for believing or saying that vaccinations cause autism. And a lot of evidence that they don't.

[roger hao]

Giles -
A child of 2 years is vibrant, healthy, ahead of the average curve
in development. The child is vaccinated and within a very short time develops
autism.
Is the cause conspiracy theory?

[BonesCom]

Almost all of the children diagnosed with autism at age 2 will have received vaccinations, but the vast majority of children will not develop autism.

The majority of 2 year olds receive vaccinations:
Percent of children aged 19-35 months receiving vaccinations for:
Diphtheria, Tetanus, Pertussis (4+ doses DTP, DT, or DTaP): 83.2%
Polio (3+ doses): 92.7%
Measles, Mumps, Rubella (MMR) (1+ doses): 91.5%
Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib) (primary series + booster dose): 80.7%
Hepatitis B (Hep B) (3+ doses): 91.4%
Chickenpox (Varicella) (1+ doses): 91.0%
Pneumococcal conjugate vaccine (PCV) (4+ doses): 82.4%
Combined 7-vaccine series: 70.4%
Source: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/immunize.htm

“Survey data were collected in Pennsylvania from 969 caregivers of children who had autism spectrum disorder...
The average age of diagnosis was 3.1 years for children with autistic disorder, 3.9 years for pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified, and 7.2 years for Asperger’s disorder.”
Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2861294/

“Based on the National Survey of Child Health estimates for 2011–2012, the prevalence of severe or moderate ASD among U.S. children of ages 2–17 years was 0.8 percent, or 8 per 1,000”
Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK3 ... %2C%202012).

[Steve James]

Vaccinated with what? From any vaccine? Just because it's a vaccine? That "anti-vaxx" argument isn't a conspiracy theory. It's not even a theory. And, if it's true for all vaccines, then all one has to do is compare the number of children who died from childhood diseases before the introduction of vaccines. Then, the general anti-vax arguments become stupid. Why should we stop vaccinating against typhoid, tuberculosis, chickenpox and smallpox? If someone wants to make an argument against a specific vaccine, fine. But, vaccines have been saving lives for centuries.

Afa autism, the number and frequency of cases has gone up with the ability/tendency to diagnose it as a condition --with a wide spectrum. It was only recognized as a specific condition in the 1980s. Now, whether the side effect of a specific vaccine might cause a negative effect on the brain is what researchers try to discover. However, how do we know that vaccines don't give infants cancer or any other physical disease. Why does a perfectly vibrant two year-old develop liver cancer after being vaccinated?

Anyway, the one argument I can agree with --without being an expert-- is that spreading out the vaccinations just seems safer.

[Giles]

@Roger

If this happens to a child, then it’s so sad. Developing autism, I mean. But then one has to consider some other points:

-- Which child was this? What is the source for this account? In other words, make sure this isn’t an invented or distorted story. There are plenty such stories going around these days.
-- What vaccine was involved?
-- And if we’re talking about a single case, or even possibly several cases (somewhere, at some time), what kind of causality and probability can be concluded from this? How many healthy young children were injected with the same vaccine and didn’t develop autism shortly afterwards, or ever?

Once again, any child developing autism is sad, or tragic. But the example you cite is essentially meaningless. .... Mr X received a flu vaccination and 6 days later he died of a heart attack. Ms Y received a tetanus vaccination and two months later she committed suicide. Such deaths and involved stories are emotionally affecting, are important. As are all deaths. But in clinical terms with regard to the vaccinations, if these remain highly isolated events with no substantiated evidence of an emerging pattern, then so what...

[roger hao]

Steve -

all one has to do is compare the number of children who died from childhood diseases before the introduction of vaccines. Then, the general anti-vax arguments become stupid

This is the argument for opening society in Covid times which you
argued against saying what if it was your mother /sister/ brother.

Because vaccine cases were being argued successfully Big Pharma lobbied
for relief and thru $$$ became IMMUNE to law suits.

[Steve James]

This is the argument for opening society in Covid times which you
argued against saying what if it was your mother /sister/ brother.

I don't understand that sentence. I can't plug "covid" into the sentence I wrote. There's no way for me to compare how many children died from covid before the vaccine until children have died from the vaccine. And, even if there were, that number would have to be compared to the number of children who did not die --and how many developed severe cases of covid.

All I was saying was that any general anti-vax argument is dumb. Not taking the new covid vaccine has nothing to do with children and autism.

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

I have the question :
WHY in the US, we have the biggest rate of deaths connected to the covid?
Where US has the highest contemporary medicine level.

This is a pretty easy one to answer.

First, to claim that the US has the "highest medicine level" is erroneous in several senses. What's more, there are additional confounding factors that have made dealing with Covid in the US impossible.

The claims that the US has the best medical technology or medical care in the world are generally made by right wing ideologues who are simply misusing data (as is the case with the former [tech]), or are outright lying (as is the case with the latter [care]).

The notion that we have the best tech is usually based on percentages which themselves are based on patent numbers. But, if you examine these closely, you will notice that they are almost always derivatives of preexisting drugs or new uses of old drugs. In other words, it's all about money for big pharma rather than actual innovation--and certainly not invention. However, that is not to say that the US is not at the top or near the top, just that the level is wildly exaggerated by gung ho nationalists. So, where else to look for the problem?

Well, and now we can come to the really obvious point: the US is singular in its position as a leader of the Global North with no universal healthcare system. About 30 million Americans don't have health coverage of any kind. Going to the hospital is not even on some peoples' radars. Preventative care? Forgetaboutit.

Then we have the problem of suffering the pandemic with a President and party who have actively ignored, then downplayed, the pandemic claiming it was just the flu; that it would disappear (giving various made up dates); or claiming that it was easy to cure (maybe for a billionaire President?). This, in turn, led to a politicization of a public health crisis where simply wearing a mask was seen as a political declaration.

This very thread is full of completely bizarre antiscience statements (including your own) that can potentially do harm if they influence the gullible or ideologically sympathetic.

[Steve James]

Sure, someone can get the best care in the world in the US. That doesn't mean that the majority of people get that care. All hospitals are not the same. You have to be "someone" with enormous financial resources, or be on an experimental program to get the "best" care. The prez is the perfect example. He didn't get what you or I would get.

Otoh, that's true everywhere --except that other "first world" countries guarantee that all citizens have health care. It's true that if you need an ACL replacement, it's better to to the Hospital of Special Surgery (where LeBron might go). But, if you're on Medicare, you can have it done at the local hospital, or even ask to have it done by a newbie surgeon for cheap/er.

The irony is that the US system is probably the most profitable, yet we end up spending the most on health care.

[Finny]

not quite, Finny
funny thing is, that lot of humans know some small part of something, and shouting eureka in the same time;
but
everybody are entitled for opinion, in mean time, of course

My father is a professor of medical microbiology; I grew up learning about and understand the science behind microorganisms and vaccination.

I have an ex who did her PhD on the psychology of misinformation - the impact of the Wakefield study was her 'gold star' example of how powerful misinformation can be. Essentially your notion that there is a link between autism and vaccines was created in the popular mind by a completely faked study which was later retracted. Wakefield was struck off the medical register as a result.

Giles -
A child of 2 years is vibrant, healthy, ahead of the average curve
in development. The child is vaccinated and within a very short time develops
autism.
Is the cause conspiracy theory?

Yes, yes it is, if you think it is a vaccine. Contrary to your claim, there has in fact been REPEATED, peer reviewed studies with massive sample sizes, which have conclusively demonstrated that the claimed link between (MMR) vaccine and autism just does not exist.

Funnily enough, I remember the ex telling me that, in a survey done by psychologists examining the power of misinformation people were told a scenario involving a fire in a warehouse, accelerated by some oily rags in a closet. Then later are told that was wrong, there were no oily rags. When asked after finishing the story what started the fire, over 90% answered 'the oily rags'...

[Steve James]

Hey, the only important issue now is whether the vaccine works. The only way the authorities will allow theaters, restaurants, and public spaces to reopen fully is when covid is no longer an issue. People can pooh-pooh the idea that 300K people have died with the virus, but it is still an issue at hospitals (and not just in the US).

So, imo, all those brave souls who argued that "people die all the time" or that "you can't shut everything down because of a virus" shouldn't now reject taking the vaccine. Yeah, it's new; but, "people die," no? I remember one Lt. Governor saying that he'd be willing to sacrifice himself for the economy. Taking the virus is a way to get the economy going again quickly.

If it doesn't work, it's unlikely that we'll be indoor dining through 2021. Call me crazy, but I don't think the virus (or the illness it causes) will just magically go away. I watched video of a pastor being interviewed who was arguing that the whole "pandemic thing is a hoax. Yeah, covid is real; but there's no pandemic." The interviewer asks, "What is a pandemic to you?" He replied, "I've never seen a pandemic in my lifetime. This sure ain't one." The discussion went back and forth, or around and around, without ever reaching a conclusion. But, because he didn't think it was a pandemic, he said that masks and social distancing were unnecessary, and that he wasn't going to take no vaccine.