But is it external?

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

But is it external?

Postby GrahamB on Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:14 am

I've just noticed, the same crew that say, "but external is just as valid as internal, just different", never ask the question of any video clip, "but is it external?" - lol.
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Re: But is it external?

Postby Trick on Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:59 pm

Cause external is obvious to the eye .......
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Re: But is it external?

Postby Strange on Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:49 am

human beings are predictable because the vast majority have to think
in terms of "either/or".
inbuilt into the brain, cannot stop itself because not able to think
in terms of "both/and".
very predictable and interesting to see.
from individual to foreign policies of country state; the mind just not able to
grasp and comprehend.
keep thinking it has to be one or other
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Re: But is it external?

Postby Bao on Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:59 am

Strange wrote:human beings are predictable because the vast majority have to think
in terms of "either/or".


I believe that this is very much a Western thinking. In the East, people think more in terms as that opposites exists together at the same time. Therefore, people here have an idea about internal arts that is different from how chinese perceive the same idea and term. Some styles focus more on neigong others more on waigong. The outcome will be different depending on how you practice, what exercises you spend most of your time on. -shrug-
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Re: But is it external?

Postby LaoDan on Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:00 pm

I tend to favor the idea of there being a continuum between “external” and “internal.” With the IMA developing from the EMA, the IMA will include many methods found in EMA, and EMA will have many methods that may have been modified for IMA but still contain their roots.

The either/or binary choices that we tend to favor probably stems from the two frontal lobes of the human brain that process thoughts separately. While one frontal lobe is analyzing “internal” the other lobe may be analyzing “external” rather than weighing shades of grey. Shades of grey require more contemplation, whereas binary choices are more immediate.
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Re: But is it external?

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:00 pm

Bao wrote:
Strange wrote:human beings are predictable because the vast majority have to think
in terms of "either/or".


I believe that this is very much a Western thinking. In the East, people think more in terms as that opposites exists together at the same time. Therefore, people here have an idea about internal arts that is different from how chinese perceive the same idea and term. Some styles focus more on neigong others more on waigong. The outcome will be different depending on how you practice, what exercises you spend most of your time on. -shrug-


It does seem to be something that modern conservatives cling too, but I don't agree that it's a Western thing. From Aristotle to Hegel to Marx and beyond, various dialectics have been proposed as a way to understand what is illustrated in the taiji tu and how such an epistemology might be applied to various phenomena.
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Re: But is it external?

Postby Strange on Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:40 am

天官指星 单对月 风摆荷叶 影成双

岳武穆王以枪为拳, 六合形意李门世根, 形意拳五行为先, 论身法六合为首,少揽闲事心田静, 多读拳谱武艺精 - 李洛能 (形意拳谱)
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Re: But is it external?

Postby Overlord on Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:46 am

Strange wrote:


Ha ha ha... loved his jokes and fit into this context so well...
Excellent.
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Re: But is it external?

Postby Bao on Sat Aug 29, 2020 3:33 pm

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote: I don't agree that it's a Western thing. From Aristotle to Hegel to Marx and beyond, various dialectics have been proposed as a way to understand what is illustrated in the taiji tu and how such an epistemology might be applied to various phenomena.



I only referred to modern, general understanding of common people, not to philosophers.
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Re: But is it external?

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:09 pm

Bao wrote:
Ian C. Kuzushi wrote: I don't agree that it's a Western thing. From Aristotle to Hegel to Marx and beyond, various dialectics have been proposed as a way to understand what is illustrated in the taiji tu and how such an epistemology might be applied to various phenomena.



I only referred to modern, general understanding of common people, not to philosophers.


While such generalizations might be convenient for you in this moment, it seems transparently vacuous. We are on a IMA board. I imagine most people here read philosophy of one sort or another. I also don't know many people other than the specific group mentioned who see things in black and white. You tried to generalize Westerners, and now have had to back into a corner of "modern, common" people. Well, as I said, "...and beyond." It's not like these ideas died. They are alive and quite well. It's just not a helpful way to categorize people, and certainly not accurate.
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Re: But is it external?

Postby Trick on Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:53 pm

trouble is the modern common people mindset seem getting Orwellian.....good is bad, left is right....external is internal...etc ......Now i just generalize much(wich in a modern common people mind would mean speaking as a matter of factly)
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Re: But is it external?

Postby Strange on Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:22 am

.... such mistaken ideas delineate and separate peoples into groups,
the group share their mistaken ideas in their group thinking;
such group think reinforces their original mistaken ideas
and as all groups there are social hierarchical standings
it will not be too long before peoples with lower social standing
start to feel that they need to fly-off with a touch to gain favour from those in higher standing (in a bid to move up)
by this time, have moved very very far from the way.
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岳武穆王以枪为拳, 六合形意李门世根, 形意拳五行为先, 论身法六合为首,少揽闲事心田静, 多读拳谱武艺精 - 李洛能 (形意拳谱)
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Re: But is it external?

Postby Bao on Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:10 am

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:
Bao wrote:
Ian C. Kuzushi wrote: I don't agree that it's a Western thing. From Aristotle to Hegel to Marx and beyond, various dialectics have been proposed as a way to understand what is illustrated in the taiji tu and how such an epistemology might be applied to various phenomena.



I only referred to modern, general understanding of common people, not to philosophers.


While such generalizations might be convenient for you in this moment, it seems transparently vacuous. We are on a IMA board. I imagine most people here read philosophy of one sort or another. I also don't know many people other than the specific group mentioned who see things in black and white. You tried to generalize Westerners, and now have had to back into a corner of "modern, common" people. Well, as I said, "...and beyond." It's not like these ideas died. They are alive and quite well. It's just not a helpful way to categorize people, and certainly not accurate.


It's not about if you have read philosophy or not, it's about cultural differences. Believe it or not, but such differences exists. If you tell a woman in the West or in India that she looks like a "cow", and you'll get two very different reactions. ;) Don't know if you get this one. Just one example of many.
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Re: But is it external?

Postby Trick on Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:57 pm

Handling cows..and bulls require a sensitive touch , susch as harnessed in TJQ practice, brute external force won’t do https://www.wikihow.com/Herd-Cattle#:~: ... %20More%20
Last edited by Trick on Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: But is it external?

Postby roger hao on Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:22 am

Funny - just last November I had the opportunity to assist in the
move of a herd of cattle in Brazil on horse back and on foot.

We had to go gather up the herd - bring to holding pens -
load on trucks - unload at new location.

One take away - Brazilian cattle are not as docile as USA cattle.
Another is that the article is very nice and gentle sounding.
This is not the case in practicality. It is when wandering thru the
meadow. It is not when using chutes and trucks.
Last edited by roger hao on Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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