Sifu Adam Mizner shows how Taichi can stop MMA style takedow

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Re: Sifu Adam Mizner shows how Taichi can stop MMA style takedow

Postby Quigga on Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:36 am

If it doesn't scream when you hit the bag, good chance it's dead.
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Re: Sifu Adam Mizner shows how Taichi can stop MMA style takedow

Postby Doc Stier on Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:42 am

Hahaha! What a hoot! Of course, the Gracies obviously sold their system for fame and fortune. They didn't literally "give it away". But in so doing, they lost any street fighting edge or challenge match advantage which they may have enjoyed previously. It was totally and solely their choice to do so. In retrospect, the family teaching business was greatly enhanced financially as a result. Nearly all famous martial art families have done likewise to insure that their rice bowl remains filled to overflow.

However, not everyone chooses to follow that path. Those who see their martial arts knowledge and skill sets simply as a commodity to be sold, probably won't understand the various reasons why some choose not to market their arts in the same way. To each as they deem best for themselves. :)
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Re: Sifu Adam Mizner shows how Taichi can stop MMA style takedow

Postby GrahamB on Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:49 pm

Quigga wrote:If it doesn't scream when you hit the bag, good chance it's dead.


Not if the cat belongs to Schrödinger, in which case it is both simultaneously alive and dead.
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Re: Sifu Adam Mizner shows how Taichi can stop MMA style takedow

Postby GrahamB on Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:51 pm

Until you open the bag that is, at which point reality will disolve into one of two possible states.
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Re: Sifu Adam Mizner shows how Taichi can stop MMA style takedow

Postby Steve James on Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:18 pm

You're right.
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Re: Sifu Adam Mizner shows how Taichi can stop MMA style takedow

Postby Doc Stier on Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:40 pm

Popular opinion trends in recent years are really interesting. Some people express their belief that traditional style practice material and training methods are completely outdated and ineffective in today's MMA world, having been killed by Old School perspectives and secrecy.

And yet, they also think that teachers who perpetuate the traditional styles should openly and totally share them with their critics via free YouTube videos, free ebooks and blog articles, etc. OK, but if they no longer have much real value, why bother wasting time with anything specifically related to their practices?

Conversely, any teacher who appears to diverge from the traditional, classical arts and practices by creating new training methods or by editing and modifying the older traditional material is usually labeled as a fraudulent teacher and/or a rogue practitioner.

So what's left in between other than the same basic kickboxing and grappling most MMA guys are training? Is there no longer any benefit in older traditional training, or any fresh benefit to be found in the modern innovations? :-\
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Re: Sifu Adam Mizner shows how Taichi can stop MMA style takedow

Postby GrahamB on Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:55 pm

Of course there is! I'm not exactly going to satisfy the hungry ghosts of my ancestors slain in battle over generations by performing the ritual of "BJJ rolling", am I? I need to re-enact the ritual of the taoist warrior in battle for that, so only Chen style Tai Chi will do!
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Re: Sifu Adam Mizner shows how Taichi can stop MMA style takedow

Postby GrahamB on Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:40 pm

"basic kickboxing and grappling most MMA guys are training?"

It all depends how you look at it. What perspective you use.

You could say the "basic kickboxing" done by MMA guys is the cutting edge in combat science. Higly trained full time professionals pushing the limits of physical edurance and fitness. And sometimes an experiment with a chemistry set too. ::)

As for the "basic grappling" - again, it's high-level grappling under pressure and real resistance. It has a history that goes back all the way to anceint China via America, Brazil and Japan.

I think ideas like "traditional" and "classic" are convenient labels for people. "kickboxing" that forms the basis of MMA striking has roots in the traditional and the classical, so does the grappling...

Peopel were kickboxing and grappling before Taijiquan, Baguazhang, Wing Chun, White Eyebrow and Choy Li Fut existed.
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Re: Sifu Adam Mizner shows how Taichi can stop MMA style takedow

Postby Doc Stier on Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:18 am

C'mon, Graham! Give me a break. My comments simply express my personal opinions, nothing more. I am neither judging anyone nor finding fault with differing opinions. Thus, a defensive rebuttal from you to everything I post isn't necessary. :-\

My references to basic kickboxing and basic grappling are in no way meant to slight anyone. Basic body methods based upon basic principles, and basic striking and grappling techniques derived from them, form the foundation of every style and system. High level practitioners are those who have more thoroughly mastered the 'basics', and have a better understanding of how to apply them in their fighting techniques.

At this point in time, virtually every martial art style on the planet has been edited, modified and added to since its inception in efforts to improve their martial efficiency. Therefore, probably all styles are now 'mixed martial arts', but just not necessarily what has been branded as competitive MMA. It's all good! :)
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Re: Sifu Adam Mizner shows how Taichi can stop MMA style takedow

Postby GrahamB on Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:06 am

Surely you don't mind having some of your basic assumptions challeneged now and again, eh, Doc? ;) It's good for the soul.
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Re: Sifu Adam Mizner shows how Taichi can stop MMA style takedow

Postby Doc Stier on Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:59 am

Pffft! My personal study of and training experience in all aspects of the martial arts over the past 60 years transcended the level of basic assumptions long ago. Nonetheless, the entire process along the way to this point has been good for the soul. :P
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Re: Sifu Adam Mizner shows how Taichi can stop MMA style takedow

Postby meeks on Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:48 am

as a former wrestler I cringe when I see martial arts demos where someone shooting for the opponent's legs happens 'from across the room' like that
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Re: Sifu Adam Mizner shows how Taichi can stop MMA style takedow

Postby origami_itto on Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:04 pm

meeks wrote:as a former wrestler I cringe when I see martial arts demos where someone shooting for the opponent's legs happens 'from across the room' like that

How to defend against someone over extended on their knees.
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Re: Sifu Adam Mizner shows how Taichi can stop MMA style takedow

Postby Peacedog on Sat Apr 22, 2023 5:26 pm

I guess what I find odd about the whole traditional versus modern martial arts argument is that if you look at what the great "masters" did in terms of their learning cycle...it looks a lot like the approach to MMA taken today. Alex Kozma wrote few books where he detailed the training behind a bunch of turn of the century practitioners. I think one was about Wan Laisheng's background in Ziranmen.

A guy would have his root style, say Shaolin, and he'd figure out he needed to learn grappling. So, he would go do that. Then he'd figure out he needed to learn throwing and he'd go learn that. Rinse repeat.

Of course, weapons training would have been important as that is how people kill one another when they get serious about it, but the pattern was the same. Learn something...find the holes...learn something else.

Even Bruce Lee took up jujitsu after Gene LeBell handed him his behind.

MMA seemingly systemized this, minus the weapons training. When I look at the Gracie's work they were basically doing this with jujitsu as well. Taking a traditional system, updating it with techniques they'd figured out and systemizing it so it could be more efficiently taught. So, kudos to them.

And as many people pointed out here, most techniques will work under the right set of circumstances. Even if those are unlikely to be encountered with any frequency outside the dojo.

My main complaint with many traditional systems is not that they do not work against the threats they were designed for. It is that the practitioners get so high on their own supply that they cannot recognize the need for training outside that system that their root style cannot effectively counter.

For example, wing chun is genius stuff, but a trained grappler can get inside their punching and it is basically over. So, make sure you learn enough grappling to a least counter that approach etc.
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Re: Sifu Adam Mizner shows how Taichi can stop MMA style takedow

Postby cerebus on Sat Dec 30, 2023 12:24 am

In my experience, it's not the traditional martial arts themselves that are lacking, but rather the training methods used. if a person cannot effectively spar with a boxer/ kickboxer/ MMA fighter, then they probably won't be able to take an untrained fighter in a street situation. Like it or not, MMA rules full contact sparring is the closest we can reasonably get to a streetfight in training. Find a teacher who teaches the art you wish to learn and who can also step into an MMA or at least a kickboxing ring and give decent account of themselves without looking like a 6 year old in a playground brawl.
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