What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

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Re: What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:09 pm

Not only can I reproduce what he does I can teach an untrained guy to do it in 5 minutes
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Re: What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:24 pm

windwalker wrote:How many agree with or not, with the explanations given
How many can do what is shown in the demo

What he outlines is common, many other teachers explain what’s happening in this way.


No I don’t agree with Mizner’s explanation or anything he says here. And I don’t believe that his explanation is very common.

Here is something similar but explained very different. Who do you believe is the most advanced player Mizner or Lü?

Compare with what Lü does here below, starting from 3.10. Mizner says ‘hua (transform) directly on touch’. Lü says ‘[take] in, hold, let go’. Mizner has no control of his ‘opponent’s’ reaction. Lü says that ‘you decide when and how’. Mizner is hard to follow or replicate if you try to follow what he says, and he needs a compliant partner who nearly falls on him. Lü can do what he does unrehearsed on any student and anyone can follow, learn and replicate what he does with enough practice. Why should anyone even care about who could do what Mizner does or say when they can follow a person as Lü step by step and learn to do the same?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU0nI1VPaNk

Last edited by Bao on Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:25 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Not only can I reproduce what he does I can teach an untrained guy to do it in 5 minutes


Best post so far in this thread. 8-)
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Re: What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby windwalker on Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:53 pm

Bao wrote:No I don’t agree with Mizner’s explanation or anything he says here. And I don’t believe that his explanation is very common.

Here is something similar but explained very different. Who do you believe is the most advanced player Mizner or Lü?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU0nI1VPaNk



Of course they'er not the same. Yes they are different.
One using structure to control, the other Minzner, not..at least not to the same degree.

Advanced in what way ?
better "demo" or what ?



if you try to follow what he says, and he needs a compliant partner who nearly falls on him.
They're both demos, no ? Are not all demos compliant in nature?


Lü can do what he does unrehearsed on any student and anyone can follow, learn and replicate what he does with enough practice.

Because what he does based primarily on structure should be easy to follow and replicate. He speaks of "opening and closing"
but uses terminology that he is comfortable with according to his understanding.

Why should anyone even care about who could do what Mizner does or say when they can follow a person as Lü step by step and learn to do the same?


For those seeking to understand what Minzer, does. Would they not be the ones interested.
For those able to do or have the skill sets it might help to clarify what they may be able to do but are not able to understand.

"Minzer" Is not the one posting his videos here for others to comment on.

Is he?

Among the teachers I've noted, some in person others watched they all tend to express the same concepts said in different ways, and use the same type of "demos"
For me it seems a common approach, in explanations and demos.

If one can do it, has some skill, as some have mentioned it may not be such a big deal.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby windwalker on Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:12 pm

Apologies to the OP for a slight side track


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU0nI1VPaNk

Some points that may be overlooked in this demo.

The teacher talks about the correct timing, even before being touched.
This should help some understand the point of 4oz used as a starting point for developing
the correct touch, from having the correct touch, to understanding what is being touched.


taiji, before being named "taiji" at one time was referred as, or called
" touch boxing"

The "jin" should be able to be focused and penetrate at any point at first touch.

Many teachers using push hands to provide a safe and clear context in understanding and gaining a skill
in which to explore and experience, can give the wrong impression for actual usage



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqdEzKSqogg

Another demo, Using much of the root verbiage as
Adam used, explained in their own ways.


covers

Soft power
Quickness in taiji
Why relaxation is emphasized
key alignments

Contrary to what some have mentioned, there actually is much agreement about what taiji is,
how it's used, the standards to judge it by. Maybe not so much "here" :-\
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:00 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:01 pm

Of course they'er not the same. Yes they are different.
One using structure to control, the other Minzner, not..at least not to the same degree.


I see it differently. Mizner is far more dependent on structure. Lu can do his thing unrehearsed on any student, they don't need to overact or rehearse in any way. Lu can go up and do it anytime on anyone and get the same result. Mizner need one of his closest students and he need them to overact. This is the exact way how he does all of his demos. He needs a certain set of conditions, something he uses in all of his demos. Which means that Mizner is more dependent on a set condition, which includes both his and his partners structure.

I prefer what Lu does and how he explain what he does by far. "Method" and "explanation" might be different, but the "result" can be compared: There's an incoming force, the opponent stumbles away. This is the same in both of the videos.

We don't even need to discuss how "real" the videos are. Authentic or not there is still two very different types of explanation:
a) something that is not practical that is hard to understand.
b) something that is practical and everyone can study and try to follow.


Advanced in what way ?
better "demo" or what ?


I wrote: "Who do you believe is the most advanced player Mizner or Lü?"
It should be obvious that I didn't ask about any demo. I asked about which one one them, Mizner or Lu, that has most advanced skill and knowledge. Who is the better Tai Chi practitioner in terms of skill and knowledge? ...Anyone is allowed to reply. ;)
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Re: What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby windwalker on Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:20 pm

Bao wrote:

I wrote: "Who do you believe is the most advanced player Mizner or Lü?"
It should be obvious that I didn't ask about any demo. I asked about which one one them, Mizner or Lu, that has most advanced skill and knowledge. Who is the better Tai Chi practitioner in terms of skill and knowledge? ...Anyone is allowed to reply. ;)


In watching the demos, "for me" they'er the same,
just different flavor.

Of course one could always compare their market,
who has more students or views.
Would that not be a fair indication.

125,948 views•Apr 27, 2015 "lu"
7,836 views•Premiered Apr 17, 2021 "minzer"
13,318 views•Apr 16, 2021 "太極拳精髓解密 邱慧芳拜訪太極名家 Qiu Huifang Interviews Taiji Masters"
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Rhen on Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:07 pm

Arrogant miz, talks down like others don't have the true jin. whatever, as if he isn't off on a wild tangent all the time far from what taijiquan is all about. this is what happens when you mix to many things. Hermetics, mantis kung fu, buddhism, arrogance, and taijiquan with total mastery of none.
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Re: What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:04 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Not only can I reproduce what he does I can teach an untrained guy to do it in 5 minutes


That's interesting. How would you present this to a student?
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Re: What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:45 pm

Not sure what you mean
I sometimes watch clips like this with my students and show them how to do it
Then I explain why you don’t train in that manner
Due to the fact it limits your advancement in the art
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:39 pm

windwalker wrote:Of course one could always compare their market,
who has more students or views.
Would that not be a fair indication.


How would it be an indication of anything else than for who is more eager to market himself or who has the better optimized videos?

wayne hansen wrote:Then I explain why you don’t train in that manner
Due to the fact it limits your advancement in the art


Tough truth. But still, it’s highly likely that they don’t train in the same way as they demonstrate. A show is still just a show.
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Re: What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Quigga on Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:10 am

Doc, I admit to having emotions that may not be perfectly regulated :) No offence taken.

My skill probably isn't enough to discern who's better.
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Re: What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Doc Stier on Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:31 am

Quigga wrote:Doc, I admit to having emotions that may not be perfectly regulated :) No offence taken.

My skill probably isn't enough to discern who's better.

Excellent! No worries, man. It's all good. 8-)
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Re: What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:04 pm

Because we are training to go beyond thought into instinctive action it is not possible to train one way and demo another
I would have to deskill my students to react in the manner shown
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Doc Stier on Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:54 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Because we are training to go beyond thought into instinctive action it is not possible to train one way and demo another.



Agreed. Thus, I always question how the techniques or methods presented on any martial art video would realistically relate to the unpredictable and unexpected circumstances of a real fight scenario with a non-compliant, adrenaline fueled opponent moving with full speed, full power, and agility, without ever presenting their structure in a stationary position. These unknown 'X Factors' can potentially be a total bitch to deal with in any realtime self-defense fighting scenario.
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