the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

“The world of ‘traditional’ ‘Asian’ martial arts is full of both Eastern and Western martial arts ‘masters’ who routinely present themselves in ‘traditional’ flowing outfits and adopt mannerisms and ways of self-presentation that could undoubtedly be referred back to the imagery of orientalism. Many also continue to claim powers and perform displays that are implicitly or explicitly aligned with magic. The reason for the long persistence of this figure of Magic Itself, in/authentically embodied within the person of the trained, disciplined master, in all of its many variants, arguably resides in our desire. Goto-Jones suggests that many audiences of magic shows throughout the ages – also Eastern but overwhelmingly Western – go to the shows in the first place, and enjoy them so much throughout, because ‘they also desire these fantasies to be true: after all, a fantasy is a form of desire.”

https://martialartsstudies.blogspot.com ... magic.html

. 7,836 views•Premiered Apr 17, 2021 "minzer"

Wouldnt be surprised that at least 7000 of those views where done by a handful of board members

The world of ‘traditional’ ‘Asian’ martial arts is full of both Eastern and Western martial arts ‘masters’ who routinely present themselves in ‘traditional’ flowing outfits

in the few vids i find on the chinese tubes that statement certainly dont fit how Mizner present himself......however ive seen respectable board members dressed up in fine kungfu silk

I have often seen stuff in Mr. Mizner's videos that I can do on compliant students. I don't like his marketing but he's well-known and in demand and I'm not.

He demonstrates the same kinds of martial skills that are often defined as "good taiji" in modern terms and my biggest problem with his demonstrations is the amount of "verbiage" he uses while describing what he is doing to the admiring crowds at his workshops while simultaneously doing something subtley different in physical terms that he doesn't talk about. Taiji tends to attract more people in search of magic or a "guru" than those wanting hard work; that's just the way it was in my part of Canada in any case.

As to the video that started this discussion, I used to demonstrate such stuff in my group classes to point out what to AVOID doing as the dummy in similar demonstrations. Then again I rarely made much money from teaching and never had huge followings the way some modern taiji empire-builders encourage.

On the other hand, if you start talking about "mis-direction" that is a skill that is useful in fighting and all competent martial artists will incorporate their favourite tricks in how they train/fight. [as in 'Feint to the left, to attack on the right."]

Michael Babin wrote:...my biggest problem with his demonstrations is the amount of "verbiage" he uses while describing what he is doing to the admiring crowds at his workshops while simultaneously doing something subtley different in physical terms that he doesn't talk about.

...if you start talking about "mis-direction" that is a skill that is useful in fighting and all competent martial artists will incorporate their favourite tricks in how they train/fight. [as in 'Feint to the left, to attack on the right."]

Good observations and points well worth exploring further.

In your opinion, how important are the verbal directions or misdirections to the demonstration performances seen on videos like this presented by anyone? Are you suggesting the use of covert group hypnosis via subtle mental suggestions, NLP, etc, or something else?

Hi Doc

Thanks for the kind words.

As to your questions; I see misdirection being used often in videos by experts. I'm sure some are not even aware that they are doing it whereas for others it is a matter of conscious intent: it may be to test those watching to see who is really paying attention at times or it may just be a way of trying to make sure that the expert stays ahead of those he or she is supposedly teaching. There's also the old adage -- that some still take to heart -- that you don't show your students your best moves in case they decide to challenge you publically.

As to covert group hypnosis... no idea how often that happens although I will say that when I was learning in group classes back in the 70s through the 1990s, it was quite common to learn that the expert in front of you had had training and/or experience working in theatre, movies, as magicians or even in two cases I experienced they had been or were currently professional hypnotists. Just recently, I was watching a youtube clip of a sleight-of-hand magician and enjoying being entertained as well as mystified when it suddenly occurred to me that something similar often seems to be going on in the taiji world. The magician moves smoothly, he or she is practised, confidant and engages in a constant stream of verbal humour that is soothing, entertaining and always distracting as we struggle to try and follow what is happening. Add to that the environment of a group class where many of the participants want to be dazzled and to believe that their teacher "has the goods" and you have a recipe for martial mis-direction.

Maybe things are different nowadays; though it's hard to believe when you see the numbers of fraudulant or misleading taiji and qigong videos on social media.

One hundred percent misdirection is their main tool
You can speak after the student is already your dog
To speak before is just trickery
Holding back from your students is just holding back from yourself
My teacher would say
If I give away one secret today I will have two to give away tomorrow
Let me say this again

Tai chi is passed on literally from hand to hand

If your teacher doesn't have it you will never get it

Michael Babin wrote: I will say that when I was learning in group classes back in the 70s through the 1990s, it was quite common to learn that the expert in front of you had had training and/or experience working in theatre, movies, as magicians or even in two cases I experienced they had been or were currently professional hypnotists. Just recently, I was watching a youtube clip of a sleight-of-hand magician and enjoying being entertained as well as mystified when it suddenly occurred to me that something similar often seems to be going on in the taiji world.

You have mentioned that Tai Chi teachers often has a background as entertainers. But hypnosis and magic both lie close as well. Before teaching Mark Rasmus earned a living as a psychic. Liang De Hua didn't do well when he was younger and became a thief. This is not slander or rumours, they have been honest, open and written about this themselves. Also, I won't judge anyone as a crook. Liang for instance donated all of is money from an online course to charity, which was not a small sum. But still, I find their backgrounds interesting. Also interesting that Mizner learned from both of these...

redirecting force without outward movement? (or very little)
unbalancing, redirecting, control and issue on contact?
standard
I trained the shit out of that stuff for ages..
maybe I should become a guru too!


bit out of practice though, sadly
bloody covid!

Doesn't Adam owe a fair chunk of his lineage to this?







For those under the Cheng Man Ching lineage - is this what your flavor of TC is supposed to ultimately look like or do you think it is staged?

I don't think he started until after Huangs death so no real contact
Huang had thousands of students but only some got close
Huang was a noted fighter using his White crane
He was part of the big broadsword battalion and boxing champion of Fukien Provence
He started following CMC after challenging him
All this stuff embarrasses me and was a publicity promotion

wayne hansen wrote:All this stuff embarrasses me and was a publicity promotion

Promotion, branding and marketing seem to be particularly strong within this lineage. From Huang to the practitioners today.

Yes there are those that picked up on the Showmanship and others that picked up the skill
None seem to have got both

wayne hansen wrote:All this stuff embarrasses me and was a publicity promotion

Thanks Wayne for the candidness. If you had said this was real I'd have asked for better testable evidence but your response makes sense.

I remember reading somewhere that Adam decided to take up Tai Chi after seeing Huang's demonstration on video. Pretty sure he had not trained with him but some of the students of.

wayne hansen wrote:Yes there are those that picked up on the Showmanship and others that picked up the skill
None seem to have got both

Why not post a clip showing what you'er talking about.