Dan Harden at it again...

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Re: Dan Harden at it again...

Postby D_Glenn on Wed May 12, 2021 8:00 am

I think he’s definitely not known outside of a small number of people. I was lucky enough to see a bunch of videos of him practicing empty handed and with some weapons that someone had posted on here. But then someone had messaged the poster and they took them down. I scrambled to find free software to rip the video stream but I was too late. From what I saw he’s got insane skill that rivals my teacher Jinbao’s. It’s a shame that he doesn’t put the proof out there, because he would be taken more seriously, by people who know what they’re seeing.

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Re: Dan Harden at it again...

Postby windwalker on Wed May 12, 2021 8:22 am

D_Glenn wrote:I think he’s definitely not known outside of a small number of people. I was lucky enough to see a bunch of videos of him practicing empty handed and with some weapons that someone had posted on here. But then someone had messaged the poster and they took them down. I scrambled to find free software to rip the video stream but I was too late. From what I saw he’s got insane skill that rivals my teacher Jinbao’s. It’s a shame that he doesn’t put the proof out there, because he would be taken more seriously, by people who know what they’re seeing.

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By what measure do you equate people having insane skills with ?

He himself talks about combative sporting events, using this as a measure of high-level skills which he has not publicly competed in, nor produced any people claiming to use his skill sets to do so?

It would seem that anyone claiming high-level insane skills would match those skills as they did in days of old in publicly competitive events demonstrating them.

If they choose not to do so as some do, are they any better than anyone else claiming such skills ?
Last edited by windwalker on Wed May 12, 2021 8:28 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Dan Harden at it again...

Postby D_Glenn on Wed May 12, 2021 8:44 am

It’s just that impression that you get when you can tell that a person has spent thousands of hours moving their whole body in a cohesive manner and where you can tell that their Dantian is the root of all their movements. It looks sort of like a giant well- oiled machine with all sorts interlocking gears and if you got stuck in the gears, they wouldn’t stop turning, you would just get squished.

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Re: Dan Harden at it again...

Postby windwalker on Wed May 12, 2021 8:05 pm

Let me start by saying I dismiss Taichi entirely for high level fighting.
Most amateur MMA guys would destroy Grand Masters in a minute or two.



The claim

ok. :-\


So where is the counter example of people using his method of high-level fighting, in amateur MMA level competitions.
Shifu David Chin, “ hop gar “ had a stable of fighters who competed regularly in MMA events and won.
Does that validate his method as being high-level ?
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Re: Dan Harden at it again...

Postby Bao on Thu May 13, 2021 2:21 am

"So where is the counter example of people using his method of high-level fighting, in amateur MMA level competitions."


Just a general thought, but I really have no idea why modern MMA always should be the measurement of high-level fighting. Especially speaking of amateur level competitions.

Would an average amateur level MMA practitioner stand up against a top Thai boxer with Thai boxing rules? No? So how could anyone claim that amateur MMA would automatically be high level fighting?

Always when people are speaking about MMA vs other arts, the comparisons tend to be very strange. Why should everything always be measured by competition MMA standards? Rules and protections so people won't get unecessarily hurt, judges, mats, doctors standing beside the ring, and months for the people to prepare before a fight... :-\ So those are the standards of "high level fighting". :-\ :P
Last edited by Bao on Thu May 13, 2021 3:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dan Harden at it again...

Postby GrahamB on Thu May 13, 2021 2:34 am

If you think nobody is getting hurt in MMA competitions you clearly don't know what your talking about, and anyway Chris Wideman would like to disagree:

Image
Last edited by GrahamB on Thu May 13, 2021 2:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dan Harden at it again...

Postby Bao on Thu May 13, 2021 3:27 am

Again and as usual you put words in people's mouths that they have never said. Can you actually reply to any comment without acting like a dick? ???

Seems like you are constantly having pms.
Last edited by Bao on Thu May 13, 2021 3:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dan Harden at it again...

Postby GrahamB on Thu May 13, 2021 3:55 am

Bao wrote:Again and as usual you put words in people's mouths that they have never said. Can you actually reply to any comment without acting like a dick? ???

Seems like you are constantly having pms.



Or you could keep going back and editing the bit I took issue with, after I post ;)

"Rules and protections so people won't get hurt, "

One edit later becomes

"Rules and protections so people won't get unecessarily hurt, judges, mats, doctors standing beside the ring, and months for the people to prepare before a fight... :-\ So those are the standards of "high level fighting". :-\ "

Naughty, naughty Bao.

But your edited post is just as bad. It's a stupid thing to say.

Now, don't get me wrong. I tend to agree with his idea that not everything should be judged by MMA standards. There are lots of reasons to do a martial art, and it doesn't all have to be about competition in a ring, but seriously. People die doing MMA.
Last edited by GrahamB on Thu May 13, 2021 4:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dan Harden at it again...

Postby GrahamB on Thu May 13, 2021 4:09 am

I'd recommend listening to JS podcast, from 38.22 recorded after the most recent death in Sumo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1uF1kzu4IU&t=2304s

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Re: Dan Harden at it again...

Postby Steve James on Thu May 13, 2021 5:45 am

Risk is inherent in sport. Bike racing and gymnastics are more dangerous than mma; boxing and pro-wrestling have plenty of deaths; US football has far more injuries, short and long term. The risk is part of the attraction. and why some won't consider tennis a sport.

When it comes to tjq, an implied question is "where's the risk"? If there's no risk, then it's not a sport, let alone a combat sport. So, it doesn't make sense to compare it to other combat "sports," or to think it would produce high level sportspeople. Um, this doesn't mean that someone who practices tjq can't reach a level of ability comparable to combat sportsperson (boxing, wrestling, etc). However, that will come from experience/competition with those sportspeople in their context. Apples to apples; sport to sport.
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Re: Dan Harden at it again...

Postby Dmitri on Thu May 13, 2021 9:55 am

Bao wrote:Why should everything always be measured by competition MMA standards?

Because it's still (despite all the rules and weight categories) the closest and most exposed/publicly-visible venue to vale tudo format, i.e. an "anything goes" fight for money, which tends to, eventually, bring out "high level" fighters. The first couple of UFC events had pretty much vale tudo rules, i.e. almost anything was allowed.

The question to ask is, would a high-level MMA fighter have an incomparably, ridiculously better chances when facing a high-level Thai boxer, compared to a high-level tai chi master facing that same Thai boxer?
We all know the answer to that.
Last edited by Dmitri on Thu May 13, 2021 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dan Harden at it again...

Postby windwalker on Thu May 13, 2021 10:31 am

Dmitri wrote:
The question to ask is, would a high-level MMA fighter have an incomparably, ridiculously better chances when facing a high-level Thai boxer, compared to a high-level tai chi master facing that same Thai boxer?
We all know the answer to that.


Not really the issue is it ?

The issue is whether those claiming high-level abilities using his method would fare well in today’s competitive events.

Would they, have they?

Feel free to post examples
Last edited by windwalker on Thu May 13, 2021 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dan Harden at it again...

Postby JessOBrien on Thu May 13, 2021 11:17 am

Every martial art works great in the rule set it was designed for.
However, outside that environment it's a whole different story.

Muay Thai pros would get crushed in a karate point sparring tournament.
BJJ would get smashed in a Sumo ring.
Boxers would get swiftly thrown off of a rope-less Lei Tai platform.
MMA wouldn't last long in a Tai Chi Push Hands tournament.
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Re: Dan Harden at it again...

Postby Tom on Thu May 13, 2021 11:17 am

windwalker wrote:
Dmitri wrote:
The question to ask is, would a high-level MMA fighter have an incomparably, ridiculously better chances when facing a high-level Thai boxer, compared to a high-level tai chi master facing that same Thai boxer?
We all know the answer to that.


Not really the issue is it ?

The issue is whether those claiming high-level abilities using his method would fare well in today’s competitive events.

Would they, have they?

Feel free to post examples


12 years into the public teaching of Sangenkai, there are no examples, David. It's just that simple.

At least one successful fighter does consider Harden's Sangenkai methods valuable--just maybe not for fighting. David Mitchell has competed successfully in a variety of venues, including UFC (although he was not a UFC champ as Harden's website says). Mitchell fought in welterweight through heavyweight classes against serious fighters. Mitchell trained a little with Harden and said, ""I consider this work important and I intend to pursue it as part of my post fight career."[bold added for emphasis] In other words, Mitchell apparently did not consider Harden's methods worth training as part of his fighting career.

That's just one fighter's opinion, of course--but it makes an important point. There are significant non-combative benefits to Sangenkai training. It's an excellent if somewhat unsystematic distillation and synthesis of classical internal training methods and concepts from Chinese (and other) cultures. Since most Sangenkai students are in fact middle-aged or older, have never been in a fight by choice, are not in the best of physical condition and would probably rather hand over their wallet/purse than attempt to engage an attacker physically . . . what are they training Sangenkai for? It's not to fight, except in some kind of tepid LARPing paradigm (most of the students come from arts like aikido where the LARPing and cultural appropriation is a very important part of the art's culture). In any event, they would not learn actual fighting skills at Sangenkai seminars. Harden will constantly admonish seminar attendees that it is their responsibility to take whatever they learn and integrate it back into whatever martial art they are coming from and learn to actually fight with Sangenkai training on their own.

Harden of course provides examples of different techniques as he executes them, to show off his own level of skill. He sells the students the idea of "developing the combative body"--but fighting with that elusive creature, if a Sangenkai student actually achieves it, is the student's burden. Some exceptions for private "how-to" fight instruction might be made, for a fee.
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Re: Dan Harden at it again...

Postby windwalker on Thu May 13, 2021 11:27 am

JessOBrien wrote:Every martial art works great in the rule set it was designed for.
However, outside that environment it's a whole different story.

Muay Thai pros would get crushed in a karate point sparring tournament.
BJJ would get smashed in a Sumo ring.
Boxers would get swiftly thrown off of a rope-less Lei Tai platform.
MMA wouldn't last long in a Tai Chi Push Hands tournament.


Illustrative of the point

One year, a member of Gracie’s family from Brazil visited the park. Respect was exchanged between the two parties and the agreement on the rules were made. After three short rounds of free style pushing, Gracie went home with dirt on his back.


http://www.wuweitaichi.com/articles/Taipei_Report.htm

In trying to contact the original writer of the report for more information ,
learned of his passing "RIP"

Did interface with the group mentioned.
They were very welcoming,
to all people visiting Peace Park in Taipei, Taiwan.

2-28 Peace Park Taipei, Taiwan 和平公園 (he2 ping2 gong1 yuan2) - Precious' Experience

http://taichitaiwan.blogspot.com/2008/1 ... ping2.html

an old link, of course during this time with the virus and all,
even traveling for non-residence or citizens Taiwan, to Taiwan
it's not so easy.

Visited the group while in Taiwan, a couple of yrs back.
Warm and welcoming, with some able to speak English for non Chinese speakers.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu May 13, 2021 12:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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