Dan Harden at it again...

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Re: Dan Harden at it again...

Postby Tom on Thu May 13, 2021 11:32 am

Ah, the ironies of Harden's post over on FB are rich. For a guy who told me "I don't want to learn another form" and then posts about how the "classics" say forms are meaningless and form corrections are absurd . . . to be showing his Sangenkai students his own private "Dragon" solo form--I think it was up to four sections at one point? Harden developed this solo form by consulting the main yoga consultant for his "Yoga Origins" (TM) seminar (featuring asana as they were "originally" intended to be practiced--presumably either by the Swedish calisthenics enthusiasts from whom they were borrowed or the rishis in Himalayan caves preparing not for battle but for seated meditation), who also trains the commercial Chen village taijiquan long solo forms. He also consulted with a ten+ year student of Yang Jun's on how the five bows are manifested in the Yang family long solo form. This consultation was all done in the development of his own personal long solo form.

As for form correction . . . does he not see the value in guided proprioceptive orientation to improve alignment for power transmission and balance and to avoid injury? This is from a guy who gets his hands all over his students making corrections of a student's form during Sangenkai exercises.

For my own purposes, the treasure of CIMAs are in the jibengong, neigong and single-movement practices. Whether someone else focuses on long taolu is their business. I'm not aware of any competent CIMA teacher teaching a complete art who does so emphasizing only solo taolu.
Last edited by Tom on Tue May 18, 2021 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dan Harden at it again...

Postby windwalker on Thu May 13, 2021 11:39 am

Tom wrote:For my own purposes, the treasure of CIMAs are in the jibengong, neigong and single-movement practices. Whether someone else focuses on long taolu is their business. I'm not aware of any competent CIMA teacher teaching a complete art who does so emphasizing only solo taolu.


It is quite interesting as the forms, merely a training method designed to help understand and develop transitions between movement along with other things have seem to become preeminent, in this day and age as a way of gauging competence in the art.

Quite a departure from historically what was trained in single movements backed by usage and linked later on.

Your approach, very reflective of the traditional way.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu May 13, 2021 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dan Harden at it again...

Postby GrahamB on Thu May 13, 2021 12:25 pm

I always likes what Brian Kennedy's (one time emptyflower poster) wife wrote about him in his euology:

"He treasured the idea that either in martial arts, life or spiritual practice, each individual must be
honest and true to themselves and their path. It is your unique path. You walk it, and you set
the pace and direction."
I could be wrong.
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Re: Dan Harden at it again...

Postby Finny on Thu May 13, 2021 4:17 pm

Damn you, Asura.
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Re: Dan Harden at it again...

Postby windwalker on Thu May 13, 2021 7:03 pm

Ben Lo, an interesting , skilled taiji teacher

His method was to teach "through" the form


"People always say to me, 'You always emphasize relaxation. But how do I do it?' I say,
'Do the form.' That's the only way. A lot of people ask me: 'Do you have any special posture that can help me relax?'
I say yes. They ask, 'What?' I say: 'Do the form.'"

"If we had some other kind of posture or form that will help your body relax, we wouldn't be teaching you Tai Chi Ch'uan.
We would be teaching you that.
But so far, we haven't found those kinds of things."

http://www.wuweitaichi.com/articles/Ben ... Basics.htm

It might be more fair to say that his method a hybrid of teaching single postures through the form.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu May 13, 2021 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dan Harden at it again...

Postby Dmitri on Thu May 13, 2021 7:08 pm

Finny wrote:Damn you, Asura.

I know, right?!
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Re: Dan Harden at it again...

Postby GrahamB on Fri May 14, 2021 1:41 am

Dmitri wrote:
Finny wrote:Damn you, Asura.

I know, right?!


Image
I could be wrong.
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Re: Dan Harden at it again...

Postby allen2saint on Fri May 14, 2021 9:21 am

I live a comfortable driving distance from Sam Chin’s I Liq Quan HQ. About a year ago I visited one of his seminars . I touched with several of his students and finally with him. It was a great experience. His skills are very advanced and all of his students are very amicable and easy to work with. They all shared information very openly about their work.

After class was over we all hung out and he spent about 20 minutes speaking with me one on one. He respected that I had family and professional responsibilities that would keep me from becoming an ongoing student. He wished me well and welcomed me to visit anytime.

A study in contrasts, I believe.
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Re: Dan Harden at it again...

Postby cloudz on Fri May 14, 2021 9:51 am

just a quick note on MMA being the benchmark..
I mean what else is there really available to compare, it would by and large be anecdotal
a good analogy is science, we tend to believe science, not because it's complete
but because the answers are tested and can be relied upon
the proof is in the pudding
if it's high level it can be demonstrated in the MMA arena

it's the best, and i guess only thing we have to use as a benchmark
to evidence or prove a claim of fighting skill

this is like taking a time hop back to those old discussions
surely anyone with any common sense shouldn't need convincing or to use this kind of narrative to make a point.
never, ever going to wash or support whatever the argument might be.

live and learn bro.
Last edited by cloudz on Fri May 14, 2021 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dan Harden at it again...

Postby Steve James on Fri May 14, 2021 1:25 pm

I don't think mma is pointed to because it's the highest level fighting. It's that everyone competing in mma does mma. It's generally true that most who compete in mma have had a base art. Of course, now that there are dedicated mma schools, it is becoming more of a base style. A tjq guy who doesn't practice in and train for an mma contest won't do well in mma. And, if he does, he'll be doing mma.

High level at mma --as in champion of a division-- doesn't mean that person will beat a high level wrestler or boxer, or vice versa. To me, it's like saying that because Usain Bolt is high level at the track, he could beat Michael Phelps in the pool. :)
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Re: Dan Harden at it again...

Postby Tom on Fri May 14, 2021 6:02 pm

allen2saint wrote:....

I study in contrasts, I believe.


a2s, having met and trained with both .... I heartily agree. Well stated.
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Re: Dan Harden at it again...

Postby allen2saint on Sat May 15, 2021 6:03 am

Thanks, Tom.
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Re: Dan Harden at it again...

Postby cloudz on Sun May 16, 2021 12:49 pm

Steve James wrote:I don't think mma is pointed to because it's the highest level fighting. It's that everyone competing in mma does mma. It's generally true that most who compete in mma have had a base art. Of course, now that there are dedicated mma schools, it is becoming more of a base style. A tjq guy who doesn't practice in and train for an mma contest won't do well in mma. And, if he does, he'll be doing mma.

High level at mma --as in champion of a division-- doesn't mean that person will beat a high level wrestler or boxer, or vice versa. To me, it's like saying that because Usain Bolt is high level at the track, he could beat Michael Phelps in the pool. :)



it's rulesets Steve not really styles per se; if it where a chicken and an egg the ruleset would come first..
the ruleset then lends itself to a style of fighting.

in the mixed martial arts ruleset you find all kinds of fighting styles or have done so.
Look at guys like Machida, he trained in a number of arts
there's been all sorts represented.

but sure there are the more common ones like MT and BJJ, anyone could do pretty well with those two and a bit of wrestling thrown into the mix.
But sure that 'base style' you speak of grew out of something - what works according to the ruleset. It's been around long enough to be figured out - more or less.

it's the highest level fighting WITH the WIDEST ruleset available. end of. you can talk about narrower rulesets and they would have higher level in that narrower ruleset. someone focusing just on boxing will excel (vs an MMA guy) in that for what should be obvious reasons. We've saw that clearly with Mcgregor vs Mayweather.

Mayweather would have got destroyed in no time doing MMA with Mcgregor; boxers have tried and failed before.
This is old news.

what you say about the TJQ guy, well it's a silly throwaway statement if he has trained TJQ he'll be doing that too - in an mma ruleset and whatever he may have trained alongside it. Mixed martial art means just that, you may have either forgotten or never actually done it..
Last edited by cloudz on Sun May 16, 2021 12:55 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Dan Harden at it again...

Postby cloudz on Sun May 16, 2021 12:58 pm

As for Dan, he's a cool enough guy when you meet him; having met both him and Sam, and a fair few others. I enjoyed his seminars for what its worth. He's as good a value as anyone else in my book.

The game is about marketing to an extent; you have to really look past the digs to certain arts and not take it personally I think if you do or love that particular art.

When he first came on here with his narrative, I took umbrage. It's easy to do so online with people you've never met.
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Re: Dan Harden at it again...

Postby Steve James on Sun May 16, 2021 2:21 pm

It's like anything else, the ruleset determines the training. My point was that someone whose starts out training X (karate, tkd, tjq) will have to adapt it to the rules of competition Y (ufc, wwf). That means they will have to start training for Y. It will be like starting a new sport, unless components of X are part of Y's rules. And, it's only because those are precisely what opponent Z trains for.

I don't think anyone who is high level at tjq is automatically able to be high level at any other combat sport. That's a generalization, and where I'd say that Dan Harden is right. I don't expect someone who's really proficient in any tjq style or practice will be proficient in any other sport. If they train in that sport, they're doing that sport.

Sure, Machida "uses" karate. Jon Jones, Daniel Cormier, and Dan Henderson "use" wrestling. Royce used bjj; Maurice Smith used muay thai. I have no problem that someone can "mix" tjq into mixed martial art. I just don't think it's suffient (but neither is wing chun).
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