Sun Style Taiji

[Haoran]

I'm looking for resources (DVD, Video, Instructor) on the Sun Style Taiji quan (full form). Can anyone help me here.

Thanks,

[Felipe Bidó]

I am interested in that, too.

[Michael Babin]

I've never personally seen anyone do the Sun-style form [traditional 97 Posture] with the authority that Tim Cartmell brought to that sequence at a workshop in Ottawa a few years ago. He doesn't have any dvds or videos on that style that I know of ...

Of what I have seen on video/dvd, I wouldn't recommend anything for instructional purposes except perhaps the two dvd set that the late Madame Sun put out a few years before her death. No applications shown though and a lot of it was detailed by a younger man who seems to have been one of her senior students.

It's available still from a variety of sources and it would at least be a way of getting the basic structure of the long sequence. That's a big "if" though unless you have some previous skill in xingyi, bagua and/or Hao-style taijiquan.

[shawnsegler]

Maybe I can get Jamie to film himself doing the form. He's really good.

S

[Bao]

there is absolutely no sun-taiji vid out there with any kind of martial value. All of it has been turned into health exercises for old people... Very few people practice it as the martial art it is.

[neijia_boxer]

Aiping Cheng may have learned the Traditional long Form as well. You might want to try to contact her. She got to train a whole lot of Tai Chi, Traditional and Competition forms with the top masters for an extended period of time.

http://www.aiping-taichi.com/instructor ... cheng.html

[Doc Stier]

"...I wouldn't recommend anything for instructional purposes....unless you have some previous skill in xingyi, bagua and/or Hao-style taijiquan."

Sun's TCC Set was composed as his martial arts masterpiece, the result of several decades of serious personal training in Hsing-Yi Chuan, Pa-Kua Chuan, and Tai-Chi Chuan. Master Sun never meant his TCC Style to be a starting out point for those without similar previous experience in each of the IMA's.

Logic would suggest that it's simply not possible for those with less overall skill than Sun had to start out where he ended his martial arts career.

That's the primary reason why most people don't grasp its intended martial potential, and thus end up practicing his form set solely as a moving chi-kung exercise for health.

Doc Stier

[Michael Babin]

Doc Stier makes an excellent point and one that I have often wondered about in terms of combination sets like Sun's as well as that of Chen Pan-ling in that they came at the end of many decades of varied training. I wonder if "lesser men" do themselves a service by copying the external performance of sets that were, in some ways, the pet projects of experts stringing together their favorite moves.

Of course, you could say the same thing about any sequence that is considered "higer level" as opposed to sets created for beginners and intermediates.

You could also say that solo forms of any kind are way too over-rated in the modern recreational chinese martial arts ... but I think that has been discussed before. [he said, tongue-in-cheek, while ducking and weaving as well as he can at his age ...]

[Haoran]

Well, unfortunately, the only Sun style Taiji I have seen personally is the krap from Paul Lam (granted he does help the elderly while making big bucks teaching his instructors). From what I've seen of that it, it looks ridiculous.

I know Sun Lutang has a fine reputation for being a serious martial artist but the stuff I've seen is just pathetic.

I would LOVE to see some good quality Sun Lutang material.

[Josealb]

The Doc is right. Only way that could work is to own the parts it is made of....Xingyi, Bagua and Taiji.

IMO, a decent level in Xingyiquan alone would be a hell of a good start, since it was Sun's main art.

[Doc Stier]

Although rarely seen nowadays, Sun's Original 97 Forms TCC Set is performed in much the same way that older small frame TCC sets of other styles are. It combines larger, slower circles and smaller, faster circles of the arms and hands; both soft defensive techniques and firm offensive movements with fa-jin; and includes steps to all eight primary compass directions.

It is not performed soft and slow throughout, as usually seen today.

Doc Stier

[Bhassler]

"...I wouldn't recommend anything for instructional purposes....unless you have some previous skill in xingyi, bagua and/or Hao-style taijiquan."

Sun's TCC Set was composed as his martial arts masterpiece, the result of several decades of serious personal training in Hsing-Yi Chuan, Pa-Kua Chuan, and Tai-Chi Chuan. Master Sun never meant his TCC Style to be a starting out point for those without similar previous experience in each of the IMA's.

Logic would suggest that it's simply not possible for those with less overall skill than Sun had to start out where he ended his martial arts career.

That's the primary reason why most people don't grasp its intended martial potential, and thus end up practicing his form set solely as a moving chi-kung exercise for health.

Doc Stier

By that logic it would be ridiculous to learn the mechanics of an internal combustion engine without first having studied horse-drawn buggy design, as well as train engineering and the history and mechanics of the steam engine. It just ain't so. The whole reason we as a species are able (and apparently willing) to wipe out any and every other species on the planet is our ability to effectively transmit knowledge from one person/generation to another without having to replicate another's experiences in their entirety to do so.

[shawnsegler]

Like I said...my friend Jamie can fight with his, and I'm pretty sure Tim Cartmell makes it work for him too.

I've actually seen a couple of good sun style push hands out there although I couldn't tell you where they are off the top of my head/

Best.

S

[Doc Stier]

Sun's TCC Set was composed as his martial arts masterpiece, the result of several decades of serious personal training in Hsing-Yi Chuan, Pa-Kua Chuan, and Tai-Chi Chuan. Master Sun never meant his TCC Style to be a starting out point for those without similar previous experience in each of the IMA's.

Logic would suggest that it's simply not possible for those with less overall skill than Sun had to start out where he ended his martial arts career.

That's the primary reason why most people don't grasp its intended martial potential, and thus end up practicing his form set solely as a moving chi-kung exercise for health.

By that logic it would be ridiculous to learn the mechanics of an internal combustion engine without first having studied horse-drawn buggy design, as well as train engineering and the history and mechanics of the steam engine. It just ain't so. The whole reason we as a species are able (and apparently willing) to wipe out any and every other species on the planet is our ability to effectively transmit knowledge from one person/generation to another without having to replicate another's experiences in their entirety to do so.

Bhassler:

I'm guessing that you have never learned or practiced the original Sun Style TCC Form Set. Nonetheless, if your analytical opinion is correct, then it should be an easy task for you to replicate Sun Lu-Tang's high level martial skills solely by learning the Sun Style TCC 97 Forms Set from a DVD video. All that remains to be done then at that point is to simply practice Sun's form set. Duplicating the training methods that Sun learned and practiced prior to composing his TCC style probably won't be necessary.

Good luck with adding in the missing experiential knowledge, the subtle internal dynamics, and the external performance elements that most of Sun's own students weren't able to replicate, even with his personal instruction. If successful, you will have manifested true genius, IMO!

Doc Stier

[Harvey]

While admittedly I only practice Li Deyin's simplified version of the form, there are certain subtleties to the way the form moves that are more demanding than say the Beijing 24-step, but nothing that is beyond a fit practitioner. While the 97 has much more dynamic moves than the short form I can understand why Prof Li abridged it. I couldn't imagine jumping into the 97 straight off but would relish learning it now as I've now s coupld of years of more seriuos Bagua under my belt.
Having previous experience in xingyi def helps with certain aspects of movement but can actually be a hindrance in other ways as some moves are too close to the xingyi equivalent.

To Doc Steir do you not see the inclusion of the open/close steps sporadically around the form as chi-kung counterplay to keep the practitioner on their toes?