52 VS Bagua: What Next?

[Iron Apprentice]

(Gettin rite into it) The worst part is, people will NEVER keep things totally in the proper perspective. Now it IS Bagua vs 52, now that BT and D Marks want to fight and shit. After Mao SAID it was not style vs style. But you think people will stick to that? Hellz no! Damn depressing if you ask me. Its already went to that degree on "butt-tube". Dozens of comments about Bagua being shit and for f_ _ _ _ _ _(gay people) and all kinds of other acenyne shit-just cuz one individual lost a fight. THIS is why this stuff should never happen! Now we get see a whole cycle break loose between two styles (and of course Im on the Bagua guys side Lol). Even after both combatants said otherwise. And its not like Im totally innocent either - that guy Bakari fakin the XY funk has me all tightned up! But its like I always say to Jim T. Kirk when we're hang out for a Guinness or two or three or four (alright already!) on the Enterprise - "Theres really very little difference between Humans and Klingons. Both are war-like races. The Klingons are just more honest and open about it. We could learn from them."

Question: Do you guys think internet beef is lame, legitimate argument or not? Or do you guys feel challenges have always been a part of martial arts and the net is just modern tech "bringing people closer together"?

[everything]

lame now, lame then, media does speed up the news and rumor cycle. have these people never watched modern mma's evolution from style vs style to individual vs individual? the posters on butt tube are probably teenagers or other immature people.

[cerebus]

Meh. There have always been challenges, there will always be challenges. As long as the result is positive (people learn from the results) and no one is seriously injured, I have no problem with it. If the Maoshan/ Lyte Burley fight had never happened, Maoshan would not likely have realized that he had a gaping hole in his fight game. Now he does, so he can work on patching it. Positve result in my book...

[yusuf]

not only him, I saw something in that fight I had missed from my training too... there were some holes which i have never trained to exploit..

[Juan]

there were some holes which i have never trained to exploit..

[Butterball]

Imo, it's best to let internet stuff stay on the internet. Lifes hard enough without getting bent out of shape about stuff on here, especially when a lot of the time you don't know who is on the other end of the keyboard.

[Burning Palm System]

The problem is It might even get to packing weapons if someone gets a beat down and doesnt like it, shit anything could happen when someones pride and ego has been crushed.

Fighting should be in the octagon or ring if these people want to battle it out, doing it on the street isnt good for people (kids) and parents seeing this crap go down. These guys are professional teachers they should act like that and if they have to battle do it in a ring or on the mats its alittle safer even for the loser!

My 2cents
Garry

[ashe]

Question: Do you guys think internet beef is lame, legitimate argument or not? Or do you guys feel challenges have always been a part of martial arts and the net is just modern tech "bringing people closer together"?

i think BT knows how to promote by talking "smack" and making "trouble".

[BillyK]

Or do you guys feel challenges have always been a part of martial arts and the net is just modern tech "bringing people closer together"?

this

[Burning Palm System]

Define what you consider a Challenge is Billy?


cheers
Garry

[Iron Apprentice]

Agree with everyone.

[Lincoln]

Where is all the challenging happening at?

[Dmitri]

(from http://www.alliancemartialarts.com/deathmatch.htm; originally from rec.martial-arts Usenet newsgroup but I couldn't find it there anymore... )

Note, there are some references to various internet personalities very active online at the time of original posting, sprinkled throughout this article, but it's good (or at least funny) stuff anyway. Hope those of you who haven't seen it before will enjoy:

Folks - This was first contributed by brother Badger to Rec-Martial Arts (an Internet chat room he frequents) hence the constant references to both it and to specific people and events from that board. Even without knowing any of those people or events, this FAQ is still a hoot and gives some helpful advise should you ever find yourself challenged to a deathmatch over the Internet. - Pete K.

The Challenge / Deathmatch FAQ 2.5
By Kevin "Badger" Jones

"Sometimes he deserves a killin' and sometimes he doesn't deserve a killin' so if you're going to kill someone, make sure he deserves a killin' " - W. Hock Hochheim

Whaddya say, people? Isn't it time we stopped giving our money to the lawyers and started giving it to the undertakers? Sure it is. It was good enough for our ancestors, and it should be good enough for us. And it never did them any harm - why, they lived in a halcyon age where teenagers were respectful and didn't dress oddly, and the sun was always shining except on the way to school when, inexplicably, three feet of snow fell overnight, and hills slanted against you both there and back. But I digress…

1) Getting Started - the Challenge

Of course, there are so many ways that this can happen. Rarely does it occur because of personal insults. Typically it is a response to someone refusing to see that the Sweet & Holy Light of the Universe shines out your ass.

1a) Are You Talking to Me? ARE YOU TALKING TO ME?

Characterized by belligerence, posturing and a thin skin. The most common form of challenging, often engendered by the incorrect belief that everybody will agree with you and rally to your cause. Things escalate because nobody rallies to your side, and you look like an idiot with your ass dangling in the wind. Lots of smoke, but not much fire. Often, but not exclusively, the parvenu of someone who hasn't been posting long.

1b) You Are So Full of Shit, I Mistook You for a Porta-Potty at Woodstock

Characterized by utter disbelief at another's assertions. Utterly common point of view, but usually stays at the flame war level.

1c) But Sokitumi Sensei Told Me Our Style can Defeat any Outrageous Number of Armed Attackers

People resent having their illusions shattered, or even questioned - more so when that belief has been propped up by an old man with a thick accent. It probably tugs at some psychological level untapped since childhood, when Santa's sleigh disappeared over the Atlantic, the Sandman was arrested for throwing grit in children's eyes, and ice cream cones weren't filled to the bottom.

2) Various Levels of Understanding the Niceties of Challenges

Okay, so most universities don't offer credit in Code Duello anymore (even as an elective! Why, it makes me furious I can tell you... but I digress), and can therefore be excused for not having all the details down. We'll just hit the high points.

2a) If You Accept my Challenge, Can I Sleep on Your Couch?

All onuses are on the challenger to cover travel costs, find accommodations, propose acceptable limitations, etc. All the challenged has to do is either accept or refuse the challenge, although historically choice of weapons, time and location were usually up to the challenged. It is somewhat unsporting to deny a challenge out of hand, but the challenged is not obligated to accept the offer.

The Trav Clause: Trav may elect to pay for one of the challengers to come to a venue of his choice and sleep with the fishes - er, on his couch. Don't say you weren't warned.

2b) Retreat, Regroup, Repeat

There are many things in your life done in the heat of the moment that you will regret later. Here's three: getting drunk in Las Vegas, visiting a tattoo parlour while drunk in Las Vegas, or challenging someone. Offering a challenge, and then adding/changing conditions is a common way of trying to back out while attempting to maintain some dignity. The problem is it doesn't work - your dignity was shot to shreds a while ago and all this does is reinforce the widespread belief that you are a poseur. Popular variations include "my technique is too deadly," "a true martial artist doesn't lower himself to fighting," and "my mom won't let me."

Emin Boztepe & Royce Gracie is a good example. (Although not Rec-MA participants, this non-event was precipitated by Rec-MA discussion - way to go, and better luck next time)

2c) Gentlemen, Take 10 Paces, Turn and Fire

Both sides up to it, understand how these things work, set it up. About as common as a pair of brown shoes at a tux rental shop. (Carl and Gi, Mike and Chas)

3) What Constitutes a Challenge?

With the modern standards of incivility, it can be difficult to decide whether somebody is actually trying to fight you, or merely communicating using Standard God-Damn North-Fucking-American English.

3a) Oh yeah? You Talk Tough for Somebody on the Other Side of the Atlantic!

A challenge does not consist of offering to fight somebody, telling him or her to come visit, and boasting of victory when the opponent does not immediately run out to catch the next flight into town. This is sort of like tapping somebody on the arm, and then running away claiming that you used 'dim mak' and are therefore the victor.

3b) Come to the Clambake - If You Dare!

The word "challenge" does not necessarily need to appear in discussions to make it a challenge. Choose whichever euphemism you'd like, call it an "invitation" if that makes you feel better - certainly nobody else expects tea and cucumber sandwiches to be served. Hell, call it the Death-Jamboree if you need to, just don't let semantics get in the way of a good fight.

Chaplain-X "inviting" Chas

3c) Whaddya Mean You Didn't Hear About My Challenge?

Grumbling to yourself in the car, writing a letter and losing it behind the couch, or taking out a classified ad in the local paper do not constitute issuing a challenge, and certainly don't give you bragging rights. C'mon now, you're trying to get somebody to fight you and it does require *some* effort.

3d) Ignore the Man Behind the Curtain

Ah, the joys of newsgroups, where nobody knows you're a dog (well, except for your habit of occasionally lapsing into "grrrowf! Rowf!" in your messages). Unfortunately, it is impossible to issue credible challenges *and* remain an anonymous, gutless troll. If you are going to challenge, you will need to leave your bomb shelter or mom's basement long enough to stand up and be identified. Of course, if you were able to do this, you wouldn't be a *real* troll in the first place, so this section perhaps applies only to the several species of lesser troll: the spotted troll, whooping troll, wide mouth troll, prepubescent troll, etc..

When both parties have agreed to a particular date for the challenge, Gichoke will grab anybody showing up at his door on that day and toss them into his basement. If only one person shows up, he wins by default. If a person self-identifies as one of the trolls in question, he will be considered to be that troll. If more than one person claims to be a particular troll, a voir dire challenge match will settle identity issues before the main event.

4) Challenges - the Denouement

There are few ways that challenges finish, and typically they are (as Chas might say) like being pecked to death by ducks. Slow, painful, humiliating, and kinda annoying, frankly.

4a) Reality Bites

The combatants meet, fight. Can anybody remember where this has actually happened with Rec-MA participants? Anybody? All I can hear is the sound of crickets… Hello? Is this thing on? I know, I know, I'm asking somebody to admit to possibly committing a felony, but help me out here.

4b) Tune in, Turn On, Weasel Out

Emin Boztepe & Royce Gracie

Tim & Gi

Fu/Ollie & Gi

Disappear, wait for the heat to die down, hope nobody remembers it when you start posting again. An alternate version is to try and exit the mess by saying you will never, ever, ever post to Rec-MA again, at least until next week. Common.

4c) Gee, You Looked Smaller on the Internet

Fight or flight, what a dilemma. So he opens the door in response to your knock and looks waaaay down at you. You note that his smile is composed entirely of steel teeth and that his eyebrow piercing is actually a large fishhook. Do the only sensible thing possible and refrain from making a threatening move. Although you have been told that it is a myth that animals can smell fear, perhaps now is not the time to find out.

Don Miller meeting Mike Sigma

4d) I Have Met the Enemy, and He is Us

Carl & Gi - everything going swimmingly, neither side being a baby, logistical problems nix it. Both sides agree that neither was being duplicitous or evasive. Rare but not unheard of.

Mike & Chas - Mike visits Chas, demonstrates (amicably) what the hell he is talking about, Chas is man enough to say he was mistaken and gives an in-depth account of Mike's internal skills on Rec-MA.

5) Instructions to Spectators

There are two distinct phases here: before the challenge, and at the challenge.

Before the challenge, when things are being openly debated in this grand forum, input from spectators is necessary to remind the participants that somebody cares. As Oscar Wilde said, "the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about." Show them you care with a steady stream of comments - actual content is not obligatory. In fact, it could be a distraction to the fighters. They're busy working themselves into a frenzy, and you're asking logical, thoughtful questions. Well, knock it off!

At the challenge is a different matter all together. Seeing how challenge fights are, well, illegal, perhaps you shouldn't make a scene in case it is being videotaped. Wear clothing you don't mind burning when it is all over. Do not hold up signs that say "John 3:14" and avoid bringing large foam-rubber hands inscribed with "Kick Him in the Groin" or "Choke Him Unconscious".

Don't distract the participants. They have enough on their minds without a schmoe like you yelling, "your shoelace is undone." Polite golf-tournament clapping perhaps would be most appropriate. For a particularly spectacular technique or graphic injury a demure "My Goodness!" or "Here, here! Good show!" is the sign of a considerate spectator.

6) Location, Location, Location

Where to have your challenge match is as important as who to challenge, and what to challenge them about. In fact, the location of the intended match has managed to spike several Rec-MA challenges before they ever made it to the starting line (Tim & Gi, Carl & Gi, Emin & Royce).

Therefore, in the interest of speeding these things along, the official Rec-MA challenge facility is declared to be Gichoke's basement. He's promised to sweep up a bit before you get there, honest. Alternate location is Trav's backyard.

A third alternative is the random urban setting, in case neither of the previously listed venues is available. A two square block area is marked out on a map. The challenger attacks from surprise, giving the defender an affiRec-MAtive defense with the authorities if he prevails.

7) Deathmatches

So many of us are realizing what the poets have known for a long time: namely, chicks dig guys they think are "sensitive." This, of course, explains the popularity of Tai Chi. The other thing that the poets had right is that a tragic death earns the memory of you a certain immortality. In recognition of that, the death match has a certain appeal in the minds of some.

Really, the rules for a death match aren't all that different from your regular challenge. Okay, so you are trying to kill your opponent - that's a pretty big difference - but otherwise the above infoRec-MAtion applies. As for etiquette, it is the hallmark of a courteous fighter that before offering or accepting a fight to the death, you really should let everybody know what your win/loss record is in death matches.

The only other point is just a suggestion: be kind to the viewing audience and agree to the use of weapons in your death match. People are busy these days and won't be able to devote the time necessary to watch you and your opponent bludgeon each other to death with your fists. When choosing a weapon note that bigger is better, with one exception - "serrations." A fight to the death between two men armed with grapefruit spoons will grant you a legacy that will last a lunchtime.

If you can't think of anything, Jeff/Batman has suggested bowling balls. No, I don't understand either - must be a Texas thing.

And the thought occurs to me that any deathmatch that arises between the pro-gun and anti-gun factions will be entertaining, definitive, one-sided and mercifully brief.

8) The Dress Code

But what is considered the "must-have" outfit for Challenge Matches? A matter of some debate, I admit. Speedos! say some. Street clothes! say others. Flowing sequined robes with a big Carmen Miranda fruit hat! say a merciful few. Perhaps the less said the better, other than it should be appropriate to the challenge (no cheating and wearing a suit of armour unless that was part of the thread that provoked the challenge). The only definite rule is for shrouds: white sheets only, please.

9) The Rec-MA Code Duello

Now, as to the actual rules of the challenge…

i) All challenges shall involve only the two principal members of the discussion that precipitated the challenge. In the event that a thread on surviving multiple attackers sparked the challenge, all will convene in a small town bar, where the patrons will be encouraged to provide complementary boxing lessons.

ii) All challengers will be accompanied by a second. However, since most of you people don't have any friends, scratch that.

iii) In the unlikely event that a challenge arises from a "How to defend against a dog" thread, suitable dogs will be acquired from the local pound, and outfitted with the usual lasers, knives and other digressions that abound in such threads.

iv) The match will not be considered to be in progress until one or both participants have lost an eye. Until that point, the challenge will be considered to be "all fun and games."

v) A winner will be automatically declared if one of the participants is unconscious, incapacitated, dead (see section 6), is missing one or more limbs, says 'Uncle', or is otherwise unable to continue. At no point may a fighter declare that the other fighter was correct in his or her Rec-MA assertions, as the opportunity for adult behaviour is long since past (if it ever really existed in the first place).

vi) All challengers are to refrain from eating the corpse of their opponent, unless the thread that provoked the challenge had to deal with the martial capabilities of biting, or the winner is a silat practitioner. If the latter, bring a barbeque and peanut sauce.

vii) If a referee is to officiate at the match, the position must be filled by a Catholic priest, Irish, preferably named Father O'Flanagan. This is doubly important if the challenge arose from the ubiquitous "Christianity in the MA" thread.

viii) Nobody's mom is allowed in.

ix) Please note that the judicial system does not recognize Trial by Combat anymore. …Frickin' lawyers gone and spoiled everything.

x) Challenges involving tai chi practitioners will take place at full speed.

xi) All participants are to govern their actions with strict attention to courtesy and decorum as… Cough, cough… Okay, I know I'm not fooling anybody with this one.

xii) If the "Delayed Death Touch" is used, the impending time of death must be announced in advance - much like calling your shot in pool. Both participants must then sit in chairs until the appointed time. A death occurring within 10 minutes of the agreed-upon time will constitute a victory.

xiii) In the event that somebody is challenged to enter a tournament of a style different from their own, they will be governed by the rules common to the tournaments they are used to. Eskrimadors, leave your knives at the door when you enter the TKD tournament.

xiv) Video and merchandising rights must be claimed by non-participants only. The only permissible forms of merchandise include: t-shirts, posters, and commemorative drinking glasses. Those figurines with the big, bobbling heads are strictly forbidden.

xv) Any challenger wishing his corpse shipped to his preferred place of burial must provide sufficient funds for shipment by bus before the challenge begins.

xvi) Any casualties not claimed by relatives 5 business days after the challenge will be fed to the creatures that dwell in the dank pit in Gi's basement.

In conclusion, in the hustle and bustle of everyday life it can often slip our minds that threats of violence over the Internet do not solely belong to creepy guys who drive white vans slowly and erratically in school districts. We *all* have a responsibility to be as belligerent and fractious as possible to those around us. Let us not slough off our duties onto the poorly-socialized among us but instead take comfort in knowing that violence is truly the world's only universal language.

[Iron Apprentice]

Brilliantly hilarious! Well, guess that caps this thread off. Dig ya later fellaz.

[BLACKTAOIST]

I like to clear something up. First My upcoming match with brother D-Mark have nothing to do with Sifu Ben hill lost to Lyte Burly . I mean Maoshan lost to Lyte Burly was because he did not train or apply the art of BaGuaZhang which he trains in so many years. Why? I truly don’t know why he did not execute his art. My only guess is he should have been training his art real time (free sparring) which from my experience is the best way to learn usage of your art in a free style combat situation.

Reason why I myself train with a lot of MMA fighters in N.Y.C. as well Judo and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu players to help improve my fighting game in BaGuaZhang . After all the only way you can truly learn the art of change and adaptability in combat is you must spar as many martial artist from other styles as you can . To only spar your classmates only limit yourself in your art to be able to change tactics adapting to fit the situation. As you saw in the Fight with Maoshan & Lyte, once Lyte take Maoshan to the ground he was lost, he did not know how to adapt to the situation Lyte put him in.

There was many times I told Maoshan he should learn some ground fighting tactics , but like most Kung fu specialist many few there no need to learn grappling with an opponent on the ground because they feel they never get taken down. Well that’s just not reality. Anyway in martial arts as well life, every Man has they on path to walk. So Ben must find his way to his own martial path of truth.


Now I like to address this comment:

I think BT knows how to promote by talking "smack" and making "trouble".

Hahaha..Well you know me Ashe I have to promote this fight by talking just a little “Smack” but on the real back in the days like years ago , I use to always get into debates with people up here on the net who did not like my viewpoints about training martial arts , or my opinion about some of the leading foremost internal Kung fu experts , but the way I see it people have a right to they opinion as I have a right to my own opinions, nothing for brothers to get all work over about.

But that was years ago, As you see today I don’t be on these internet forums, I hardly be on my own forum I created because I just don’t have time for the bullshit and internet trash talking nosense. Most of all from individuals that hiding behind a P.C. posting under fake names with no real true profiles. I just find most of these people hilarious.


Now as for this Match with I and this brother D-Marks who is this country’s foremost 52 blocks expert, well I always wanted to have a match against him a few years ago, so like I said this match truly don’t have anything to do with Sifu Ben Lost to Lyte Burly, who I give all the respect to for his win. He did what he had to do to win the fight, what he did was not the most skillful display, but a win is a win...lol

Now as far I and Mr. D-Marks match, we already agree to have this match in the ring, mostly likely under pro mix martial art rules at a professional mma Event in New Jersey. Believe me I not be fighting full contact in some street park, Both I and D-Marks are grown ass Men, most of all with family, so I not looking to get lock up over some nonsense. My match with Mr. D-Marks is not personal , but more so on a level where I want to compare fighting skills and utilize many of the combat tactics of BaGuaZhang in a combat approach executing palms, elbows , kicks, executing Kou Bu and Bai Bu leg locking techniques which eight Diagram palm is known for.

So for me it more a test of myself to see if I can apply these kind of tactics against a 52 blocks experts like Mr D-Marks in a cage environment . So I guess I have to wait and see how I do when we do meet up and fight , but until that time I still keep doing what I always been doing is training in the Cage in Harlem training with my MMA & BJJ brothers getting my BaGua fight ready for this bout. Both of us agree to do this bout, so rigt nowe all I’m waiting for is the date which this match is going to be hold in NJ. So soon I know the date I post it.

Peace
Nov