Who is the best non-living Internally External Master ??

[ShortFormMike]

No such thing as "best" IMO, but Helio Gracie is way up there, in my book, at least as far as I understand the term "Martial Artist".

didn't mas kimura completely destroy this guy? this means there were probably at least 50 other guys who could've at least beaten him at the time.

[Fubo]

Kimura did very well against Helio, broke or dislocated Helio's arm (I don't completely remember, but I wouldn't say he completely destroyed Helio considering the length of the match. Kimura also had a lot of weight on Helio, and was also considered by many to be one of the best Judoka ever - so considering that, and the length of the match Helio did pretty good. Being able to survive a long time with Kimura is no easy feat, I can only imagine. Kimura does kick major ass.

[yusuf]

did the Great Gama ever make it over to Brazil..?

[Dmitri]

No such thing as "best" IMO, but Helio Gracie is way up there, in my book, at least as far as I understand the term "Martial Artist".

didn't mas kimura completely destroy this guy? this means there were probably at least 50 other guys who could've at least beaten him at the time.

Being a great martial artist doesn't mean being undefeatable IMO. Nobody ever is.

[ShortFormMike]

Kimura did very well against Helio, broke or dislocated Helio's arm (I don't completely remember, but I wouldn't say he completely destroyed Helio considering the length of the match.

i thought kimura was trying to make the match long. he did several throws on helio trying to knock him out with them. then on the ground he had him asphyxiated w/ his legs. then he released that and did a bunch of other shit. gracie didn't do shit to him in all that time.

i'm not saying gracie was not good. but i think robert smith's describing it as a match between a competent amateur and professional was accurate.

looking at how vibrant the gracie lineage is, i'd say he is the cheng man ch'ing of JJ.

[nianfong]

not completely correct. see this thread I posted a while ago:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=209&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=gracie+kimura

gracie challenged kimura. kimura met him sized him up and laughed. told him he had to fight his student kato first, under gracie's ruleset--no ippon, only submission or KO.

Kato fought gracie. threw him around like a ragdoll. got tired from throwing him around so much. gracie choked him out--rear-naked choke.

Kimura said "it's on". and if gracie could last past 3 minutes, gracie could claim victory.

During the match, kimura threw gracie very strongly several times, and actually choked out gracie before 3 mins, but didn't realize it. he then changed holds, and the pain from the new hold woke up gracie. kimura put gracie in the classic kimura lock (named after him). gracie refused to submit. kimura broke his arm. then shifted his grip on the same arm, or went to the other arm (I can't remember which). Broke the bone again. gracie's brother threw in the towel. Kimura pwned him under any ruleset, and would have been able to claim victory if it weren't for his self-imposed handicap. gracie never stood a chance to take kimura down, or even try to submit him. all he could do was avoid being knocked out and refusing to submit. which is pretty impressive strength of will.

-Fong

[Dmitri]

Yeah, but, Fong, he lost...

Thanks for a vivid reminder of that match; I always forget the details...

[mixjourneyman]

Micheal Jackson: He once knocked Chuck Norris out with his secret moonwalking technique.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

Odin.

Fear him you puny mortals!