Rovere.com

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Rovere.com

Postby bailewen on Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:21 pm

What in god's name is this clown doing on the3 EF homepage still?

I've never really given a rats ass about the various frauds or just plain quetionable dudes out there. Doesn't usually affect me but this time I actually saw one with relevance to my own lineage. Much like the "other" David Lin agitates a lot of Shuai Jiao guys, this dude is out there in the "crushing" section with and article on "military Xingyi" where he claims to be a certified instructor from....get this....."Colonel" ZHANG XIANG WU !!!

Lot of fucking nerve that guy. It shouldn't be on EF. He claims on his homepage rovere.com, in the "millitary Xingyi" section, to have video taken off some old super 8 film of Zhang in the 70's where he was allegedly 80 years old or so. My grandmaster Zhang Xiangwu was executed by the authorities in northeastern China way back in the 50's.

Rovere's linked article about training with the gong an bu in China features lots of pictures ....of him training with.....a Chinese Tae Kwon Do class. The uniforms even say "Tae Kwon Do" in Chinese on the back.

take him off the website puh-lease...

:P
Click here for my Baji Leitai clip.
www.xiangwuhui.com

p.s. the name is pronounced "buy le when"
User avatar
bailewen
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4895
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 11:20 am
Location: Xi'an - China

Re: Rovere.com

Postby Michael on Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:41 pm

Last edited by Michael on Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Michael

 

Re: Rovere.com

Postby nianfong on Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:57 pm

whoa really? zhang xiang wu... the name is pretty famous. I never heard of anyone learning from him. I can ask david chang if he knew him--GM chang would have definitely known him.

so you're actually zhang xiang wu lineage? he claims that adam hsu will back his claim.... hm I'll ask john wang what he thinks.
can you show me the taekwondo links?

-Fong
User avatar
nianfong
Administrator
 
Posts: 4448
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:28 am
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: Rovere.com

Postby bailewen on Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:44 pm

Yes, Michael has the link right but it's all in flash animations so I can't link directly to the article. You go to the homepage:

1. http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/index.html
2. Click "crushing"
3. alt+f and search for "military xingyi"

And then the article will appear.

Originally published in the August, 1999 issue of Black Belt magazine copyright 1999 by Dennis Rovere. Used with permission.

[snip]

"The difference between the hsing-i I passed on to you and what I taught military officers during the war is significant. You learned more and had more time to perfect the art."

It was 1988. The person speaking, was my teacher Col. Chang Hsiang Wu. . . . His statement, made in response to a question I asked about the Chinese army's use of hsing-i during the Second World War took me completely by surprise.

I had recently been contracted to teach close combat to army reconnaissance instructors. Col. Chang and his wife Major Chang Yen Ying (a senior student of Du Shen Wu and former close combat instructor for the Chinese commandos) were giving me advice on how to structure the program. During the conversation Col. Chang began sharing some of his thoughts and experiences as they related to his hsing-i tenure in the military. He also, to my delight, expanded upon aspects of strategy (both in combat and training) that make hsing-i such an effective system.

[snip]


The first thing Col. Chang did was to clarify his opening comment to me.
. . [snip]


Here's his alleged training at the gonganbu (aka the PSB "Public Security Bureau") in Shanghai:
http://www.rovere.com/gung_an.html
Here's a photo of the "police training":

Image

There's others but I like that one because you can read where it says "Tae Kwon Do" on the back of the dobak.

so you're actually zhang xiang wu lineage? he claims that adam hsu will back his claim.... hm I'll ask john wang what he thinks.


Damns straight. My Shifu trained directly under the great man himself. That's how I know that General Zhang was in his 80's back in the late 50's and never lived to see the 60's. That's also how I know that there is no fucking "super 8 film" excerpts. Even General Zhang's family members claim not to have any photos.

There's a reason why you never heard of anyone learning from him. Because he, for the most part, didn't teach anyone. There's a couple guys in Shanghai who claim to have his lineage and there's my Shifu and that's about it. Shiye was too busy fighting the Japanese and the opium dealers in the northeast to be bothered teaching. He didn't even teach Liu in a formal fasion, more of a mentor type relationship. Zhang introduced Liu to Gong Baozhai and was a senior brother to him under Li Shuwen. He only taught my Shifu because the war was over and he was retired and Shifu was a little kid at the time and the old man took a liking to him. A lot of people in Xi'an even hold a fair bit of resentment over Zhang teahing Shifu when he wouldn't teach anyone else. He was essentially in hiding, which makes the thought of him teaching some crazy Guai Lo even more ridiculous. Shifu basically got in because General Zhang thought, "Meh. He's just a kid. What can it hurt...." or maybe because Zhang, at that time was lonely and liked having a kid around. I dunno. I just know that he was pretty private. He hung out around the south gate of Xi'an which, at that time, was still not developed like it is today.

Anyways, I somehow thought you already knew I was Zhang Xiangwu lineage.

For Taiji:
Wu Junshan-> Zhang Xiangwu ->Li Suiyin->me.

For Baji
Li Shuwen->Zhang Xiangwu->Li Suiyin->me.

For Bagua and Xingyi I am not even that sure. This issue only came up because I got an email from a guy who was researching his own lineage (a Wu Tan guy in Spain AFAIK) and Jarek reccomended he ask me since he was trying to get info on Zhang Xiangwu, which there is very little of out there.
Last edited by bailewen on Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Click here for my Baji Leitai clip.
www.xiangwuhui.com

p.s. the name is pronounced "buy le when"
User avatar
bailewen
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4895
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 11:20 am
Location: Xi'an - China

Re: Rovere.com

Postby bailewen on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:15 pm

heh.

Suddenly everybody's studied with him.

He was middle aged in the 30's when he sat on the board at the Nanjing Academy.

I just found this comment on FormosiaNeijia:

Sam Tam lives in Vancouver, B.C., and teaches around the world. Early on, Sam trained Eagle Claw, reaching a high degree of proficiency. He also trained yiquan under Han Xingyuan in Hong Kong, and Yang-derived taijiquan from Zhang Xiangwu and (later, in Vancouver) Chi Chiang-tao.


Honestly, I read that comment as meaning that his taiji came from Zhang Xiangwu, not necessarily personally transmitted. Just a comment on, historically, where it came from.
Last edited by bailewen on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Click here for my Baji Leitai clip.
www.xiangwuhui.com

p.s. the name is pronounced "buy le when"
User avatar
bailewen
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4895
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 11:20 am
Location: Xi'an - China

Re: Rovere.com

Postby Formosa Neijia on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:18 pm

Omar (bailewen) wrote:Here's his alleged training at the gonganbu (aka the PSB "Public Security Bureau") in Shanghai:
http://www.rovere.com/gung_an.html
Here's a photo of the "police training":

Image

There's others but I like that one because you can read where it says "Tae Kwon Do" on the back of the dobak.


Just curious here, but are you sure that the PSB doesn't also train taiquandao (taekwondo)? Here in Taiwan, the various security and police bureaus learn judo and taekwondo as well as Chinese arts. It's not unheard of.

Dave C.
Time to put the QUAN back in taijiQUAN. Time to put the YANG back in YANG style taiji.
User avatar
Formosa Neijia
Great Old One
 
Posts: 803
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 4:10 am
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Re: Rovere.com

Postby bailewen on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:24 pm

Perhaps, but not in any offical capacity. TKD is very popular in Chian. Officially they train "jingquan" or Sanda.

But actually, to be fair, I found this comment in the article:
Because our Gung An approved (and security cleared) photographer would be taking pictures of the demonstration and one of my training session, Mr. Chen and Mr. Ku both changed from their camouflage uniforms into taekwondo style gi's and black belts. When I enquired as to whether they did taekwondo, the both promptly answered "No". The uniforms were a gift of the North Korean army. When we asked why they were wearing them today they quickly replied: "If we wear our regular uniform, no one will know we are the instructors. Besides, in America don't all martial arts teachers wear black belts? Now people seeing the photographs will understand we are the teachers."


Small potatoes anyways. Aside from his claim to be the first and only ever westerner to train with the gong an, my real grip is still his insane claim to be certified directly from Zhang Xiangwu in anything at all.

Just do the math. That and pick up a history book once in a while which I know you have so you know that it's completely impossible.
Click here for my Baji Leitai clip.
www.xiangwuhui.com

p.s. the name is pronounced "buy le when"
User avatar
bailewen
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4895
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 11:20 am
Location: Xi'an - China

Re: Rovere.com

Postby nianfong on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:28 pm

oh so sam tam trained at the nanjing guo shu guan then?
User avatar
nianfong
Administrator
 
Posts: 4448
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:28 am
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: Rovere.com

Postby bailewen on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:30 pm

Then it's possible.

He's gotta be pretty old. That puts him in his 80's today.

How a young white dude who doesn't speak Chinese, back in the 50's snuck into China during the cold war, managed to find and communicate with a retired nationalist general in his 80's, is gonna be one for the ages.

I'll stick with my comments on Rovere. I don't know enough about Sam Tam to say. If he's old enough and is Chinese, then it's possible. There are a few students out there. Not many, but some.
Click here for my Baji Leitai clip.
www.xiangwuhui.com

p.s. the name is pronounced "buy le when"
User avatar
bailewen
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4895
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 11:20 am
Location: Xi'an - China

Re: Rovere.com

Postby bailewen on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:36 pm

Well just for good measure lets make it very explicit here that I am not questioning that particular claim.
User avatar
bailewen
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4895
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 11:20 am
Location: Xi'an - China

Re: Rovere.com

Postby nianfong on Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:35 am

what are the chinese characters of zhang xiang wu? I can verify whether he was in taiwan or not by asking david chang.

-Fong
User avatar
nianfong
Administrator
 
Posts: 4448
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:28 am
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: Rovere.com

Postby stma on Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:09 am

Could be a different guy with the same name. It happens.
It is necessary to drink alcohol and pursue other fun human activities. The art (i.e. karate) of someone who is too serious has no "flavour."

Motobu Choki
stma
Mingjing
 
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:09 am
Location: Pinole, CA

Re: Rovere.com

Postby bailewen on Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:14 am

张骧伍

p.s.

From an apparent "brother" in Shanghai:

http://www.wushu2008.cn/archiver/?tid-14604.html

...1928年后一度退出军界,随张之江将军创办南京中央国术馆,与李景林将军同任中央国术馆副馆长。旋即任湖南国术馆教务长。后返军界任国民革命军五路总指挥驻扎山东,在山东曾随尹派名家宫宝田习八卦。此期间小师弟刘云樵得其奖掖。...

Which is why I find it nearly impossible to believe he was ever in Taiwan. Up until I started getting the quanpu from Shifu, I was under the impression that Zhang Xiangwu died during the communist revolution which is almost true. I was under the understanding, based on a lot of theorizing I used to do together with EF member Bob Figler, that Liu Yunqiao never spoke of what happened to Zhang Shiye because it was unknown if Shiye was still alive back on the mainland and with all the politics going on, it was best to just keep quiet on the subject. Shifu then taught me the pretty much the same story as the poster jch666666 from Shanghai who's stuff is linked above.

After the nationalists were driven from the mainland, Shiye retired from military service and lived a quiet, low-profile life in Xi'an. Some years later, he attempted to return to Shandong where he was promptly arrested by the local authorities, mostly political enemies. Students and family of his petitioned the national government and ultimately, Deng Xiaoping himself issued and order commanding the local authorities to "punish him lightly" ie. house arrest or something. Don't kill him. Sadly, the infrastructure was not then what it is now and the government was not terribly unified yet. By the time the message got back to Shandong, he had already been executed by the locals for "war crimes" or maybe just simple punishment for all the drug lords he had personally killed. The line between "warlord" and "general" and between "mafia" and "government" was still pretty foggy in those days.

Adam Hsu's writings make no mention of Zhang in Taiwan either. I have read Liu's version of the history as well, thanks to a copy that Rob Figler gave me a few years back. Liu describes him as an older mentor, his "da shixiong" sort of. When Liu was still in his 20's, he was referring to Zhang as a senior, not just like by a couple years. He was practically Liu's Shifu. I mean in the way you will often train at a school where the master doesn't teach you nearly as much as the senior students. Zhang took in Liu and introduced him to Gong Baotian and others and taught Liu Yang taiji and the Wudang sword, both things that Li Shuwen did not possess and, from what I have heard, didn't really care about.
Last edited by bailewen on Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Click here for my Baji Leitai clip.
www.xiangwuhui.com

p.s. the name is pronounced "buy le when"
User avatar
bailewen
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4895
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 11:20 am
Location: Xi'an - China

Re: Rovere.com

Postby Buddy on Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:02 pm

And his wife studied with Du Shenwu? Hmmm
Buddy
Great Old One
 
Posts: 796
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 5:23 am
Location: The center of the universe

Re: Rovere.com

Postby Bob on Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:29 pm

I am not sure much can be verified but this was also written up in Inside Kungfu many years ago. People like Liu were not given to go into great detail about their relationship with people. According to what I know, Li Shu Wen dropped Liu off at Zhang Xiang Wu's headquarters in the Shandong province. Zhang Xiang Wu was responsible for teaching Liu Yang's taijiquan, Kun Wu Sword, A taiji sword and a taiji dao or at least 13 single movements, probably not a form. Zhang Xiang Wu was also responsible for hooking Liu up with the six harmony mantis master whose name slips by me (see James Guo's website). Zhang Xiang Wu also made the arrangement for Liu, as Bailewen stated, with Gong Bao Tian.

I understand also when Li Shu Wen was poisoned it was Liu and Zhang Xiang Wu who set out, unsuccessfully, to fine the assassins.

I also know that Liu was stationed in Xi'an for sometime and its not surprise to find out that Zhang Xiang Wu lived there.

Liu had a first wife and 2 children on the mainland and was not revealed until went to the mainland around 1990 or 91. Given the role that Liu played in the military it comes as no surprise that when asked about Zhang Xiang Wu he would state the old warlord was dead.

Taiwan? There is no possible way that Zhang Xiang Wu was in Taiwan at any time. There must be a terrible misunderstanding.
Bob
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3747
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 4:28 am
Location: Akron, Ohio

Next

Return to Been There Done That

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 37 guests