What have I found: Dr Stephen Yan Tuishou

[Nick C]

I'm sure some of the Chen and Yang people here will disagree, but we all know that already. As far as SC being better than TJQ at throwing, you can only speak for yourself - there are some (very few) very good TJQ people that could give good SC people a run for their money, but that comes down to the quality of the person, not the arts capabilities.

you know, I just dont understand this. This goes to my point about relative skill and experience too. Lets say for arguments sake TJQ is a throwing art. SC is a throwing art. If the majority of people doing SJ with relative experience and 'skill' as you are better than you at throwing, why would you do TJQ? You state there are very few TJQ who could give good SJ people a run for their money. If TJQ is not better - and in fact could, based on that assesment, be considered worse - why would you learn it?

[Nick C]

No one is discounting anyone's experience, but when you make a point by using someone else as an experienced example, you are saying that your stuff work against experienced people in another art.

Yes - relative experience. Compairable. You implied that unless they were not of world class level it was a pointless example. I dont believe it is.

[Fubo]

Actually, I said national, world, olympic. When I think about "experienced" people in their field, I think about people close to or at the top of their field. Experienced Judoka are people that have competed at those levels.

A person can have experience in TJQ, Judo etc... but that doesn't mean that they are "experienced", meaning they know a lot and have great ability.

[Fubo]

you know, I just dont understand this. This goes to my point about relative skill and experience too. Lets say for arguments sake TJQ is a throwing art. SC is a throwing art. If the majority of people doing SJ with relative experience and 'skill' as you are better than you at throwing, why would you do TJQ? You state there are very few TJQ who could give good SJ people a run for their money. If TJQ is not better - and in fact could, based on that assesment, be considered worse - why would you learn it?

I never said TJQ is better or worse, you are missing the point. It's about the quality of instruction.

[Nick C]

which would only be relevant if I also have competed at those levels. And while I have with forms, there is no decent push hands national competition in this country, so I havent in that realm. Most Judo schools in NZ regularly participate in competitions (I think some require it for gradings), so I imagine he did. I did not ask him if he did or what level he competed at. I would assume that he was not national quality because that didnt come up when he talked about his time doing Judo (from early teens from memory). I didnt ask though - so who knows? He - like me - was not a full time MA practitioner. We simply wanted to test his throws against my push hands.

[Fubo]

I believe what I have seen tried and done. Outside of that I look at the direct example in my style of Master Ma and what he showed. I am happy to discuss always. Doesnt mean I will agree. As for discounting opinions - well if that is what I have been doing - then ditto to all.

Well, there are quite a few vids of legit Wu style people doing a variety of throwing, and now you've seen it. You seem to believe that there's not much throwing in "martial" TJQ... so this really goes back to Andy's question of if throwing isn't a big part of Wu style, where did these legit Wu style people learn this stuff? And why would they teach it as Wu style? And why would different branches of Wu style all be doing this much throwing?

Your teacher also credits himself as a disciple of Cheng Tin Hung, who has lots of throwing in his Wu style. Shen Tiegen (red shirt) seems to know plenty of throwing, and he learned Wu style from Ma.

You could look at the vids and think, gee, there is quite a bit of throwing in Wu style... or you could look at the vids and say, no, it's not the real stuff, they all added to their Wu style with something else like SC or Judo - we do lots of strikes in our Wu style and little throwing, while they all (the people in the vids) do lots of throws, so obviously their stuff is mixed and our stuff is what Wu style was originally meant to be.

[Nick C]

Eddu Wu is legit of course (although he was not ever a student of Master Ma if his canadian website is correct? - Not sure if you bought that up or it was someone else?) - and there was nothing in his vid which I havent seen or done. Interestingly enough the repulse monkey app is the border line of what my definition of a throw is. It is successful in both instances (the opponent going to the ground or not), but would mostly result in the person on the ground for sure. However the damage in fighting is done initially with the strike from the hand countered with the rigidity and broken structure of sweeping the leg (just as the weight of the opponent is being moved to that leg).

I dont know the background of the other practitioners - but I commented on the ones that seemed to have any skill involved. I could put up a number of vids of Tai Chi people practicing delivery of force too (ie palm strike) - by the same token Tai Chi is a striking art.

However - now that you have seen just as many push hands vids of Master Ma - NOT doing throws.... What conclusion does that lead you to? How does you intial comments which say there was no entering or finishing (being throws) compare to his vids?

Master Ma's branch do not seem to do anywhere near the amount of throws some others practice. It is also very eye opening to see how different these peoples forms are from what Master Ma and Master Wu (being his wife for clarity) showed too. Where do these things come from? I could only speculate.

[Fubo]

I never said Eddie Wu was a student of Ma's. There are other videos of Eddie Wu and is class mates (the guy with the head lock hip throw), showing a large variety of throws including hip tosses.

The videos of Ma not doing throws says that he didn't show any throws in though vids. In regards to what he teaches I can only go by the examples of his students. Shen Tiegen is one.

But none of the above addresses why you believe Wu style doesn't have a lot of throwing, even when presented with vids? Also considering your teacher Cheng Tin Hung lineage.

As for TJQ striking vids, please show me where I state TJQ doesn't have strikes?

Since you state that you can only speculate as to the throwing in other branches of Wu style, isn't it logical to assume that if there are so many Wu style people that have a lot of throwing, that maybe what you know as Wu style is not the be all and end all of what consists of Wu style?

[nianfong]

wow, I didn't realize you guys were bagua guys.... you're talking in circles.

Let me share a few things I've learned from years and years doing MA, and on this forum:
1) it's always about the artist, not about the art (which fubo has said). Taiji is in itself complete as far as standup fighting is concerned (ground fighting is up for debate). it has hand strikes, throwing, kicking (every empty leg is a kick). SHUAIJIAO as well has strikes, throwing, and kicking. in fact the strikes can be pretty brutal.

2) pushing hands is a joke because the competitions are retarded, and most competitors are absolutely unskilled. pushing hands really shouldn't even be a competition I think. it should just be shuaijiao rules. that said, TRAINING pushing hands has some value. and of course taiji has its own value, which no one denies.

nick, regarding this judoka you played with. did you ever uproot or throw him?

[Fubo]

Ma, in the vids you posted receives force, leads the partner into the void and applies force where the structure is weak, or he up roots using his structure. He presents some TJQ principle and strategy in a clear manor, but there is also little throwing (does not mean he doesn't know how to throw). Ma is also an pretty old guy in though clips... maybe he didn't want to get into the rough and tumble of throwing as he might have hurt himself?

[Fubo]

wow, I didn't realize you guys were bagua guys.... you're talking in circles.

Let me share a few things I've learned from years and years doing MA, and on this forum:
1) it's always about the artist, not about the art (which fubo has said). Taiji is in itself complete as far as standup fighting is concerned (ground fighting is up for debate). it has hand strikes, throwing, kicking (every empty leg is a kick). SHUAIJIAO as well has strikes, throwing, and kicking. in fact the strikes can be pretty brutal.

2) pushing hands is a joke because the competitions are retarded, and most competitors are absolutely unskilled. pushing hands really shouldn't even be a competition I think. it should just be shuaijiao rules. that said, TRAINING pushing hands has some value. and of course taiji has its own value, which no one denies.

nick, regarding this judoka you played with. did you ever uproot or throw him?

Yes, I Bagua from time to time - I can circle all day if I must!

I agree, pushhands competitions are a joke - they should just adopt SC rules without the jacket.

[yusuf]

i am crap at push hands but if we include a little hitting/kicking & throwing then, if Stephen Yan visits the Uk I will push hands with him, video the result and post it on youtube....and Nick please tell him that his comments re Qian Zhao Hong will be passed on via Mr Qian's students... he behaves in a very shitty fashion, revels in pushing around someone who is obviously much weaker than him..and seems to be trying to get some glory off the back of that... let see how he fares against someone who doesn't give shit about his foul mouthed self aggrandisment....

Hi yusuf - I sincerely hope that this does occur. I do think that the proof of skill is like the proof of pudding, its all in the tasting.

As for the 'naming names' issue, well the last time that discussion happened it ended with photo proof being posted and then the threads being locked and people being banned. So really dont want to go down that road. Other to say that I am sure that Dr Yan would not mind.

actually you know what, forget it. I got a phone call from a teacher here who has read this and told me I am being stupid, ok he said stupider. Call me what you will but fuck this shit. i have far more important things to be doing than looking for a fight with Stephan Yan, or to participate in this sort of dick swinging competition. Hope you learn shit loads and get all the transmission that there is.

[Brett K]

I must agree with the point of people talking in circles here. It appears that the original idea of the post has been missed through most of this thread and it has gone from discussing push hands to personal insults against people and MA styles. Is it not possible to discuss an art / form / application without direct attack on a person / style ?

To pick up on one of the ideas hidden in this topic... Tai Chi certainly does have throws, as well as strikes, locks and kicks. I believe that saying that Wu style Tai Chi is a throwing art is misleading and incorrect. To say it is a striking or kicking art is misleading as well. Tai Chi is a changing art (in a sense) it changes based on what you need to do at the time. Where a throw is required, you throw, where you need to strike, you strike. What gives you this ability to change while in combat is the grounding and training undertaken as part of the art. Forms teach you your body and where it is in space, how to keep your balance and how to move. Push hands teaches you sensitivity and again how to move and keep your balance while finding your opponent's balance and breaking it. You then move on to free sparring where you need to intercept and counter incoming blows, locks, throws etc.

Push hands is by no means a fighting practice, it is one of many means to an end. You build up from one stage to the next, as in anything you do. Start at the ground and work your way up.

You can't really take a few videos of an art like Tai Chi and base an entire theory on it. Yes, lots of the videos in this post show Wu style artists throwing, many also show no throwing. Which way you decide to go is up to you. Unless you actually study the art and learn to understand it, how do you know. One day I hope to understand it fully myself. There are also many lines in Wu and they don't always agree with each other.

[Bhassler]

I got a phone call from a teacher here who has read this and told me I am being stupid, ok he said stupider.

Sounds like you got some good friends, yusuf!

[yusuf]